Spacing of invisible notes and rests
Up to MuseScore 3, notes and rests took up the same space whether visible or not (DAGM_05-MS3.pdf). MuseScore 4 instead compresses invisible notes and rests to almost no space (DAGM_05-MS4.pdf).
We are editing fragmentary scores where we often know the missing time of lost parts and sometimes have the lyrics. Therefore using invisible rests is of the essence for creating a meaningful score (btw, we import from musicxml created by our edition software). The present behaviour not only compresses the required empty space to a fraction, but consequently the attached syllables of the lyrics are printed above each other.
Even worse, the reduced spacing can cause visible elements to clash with each other (see the start of the attached score). While the change in general may have been designed as a feature, this at least must be a bug? Also, it appears to be a bug that no sufficient space is allotted to the lyrics (which formerly had hardly been a concern).
Returning to MuseScore 3 is not an option either, because there other functionality was broken or missing.
Is there any setting I have not found? Or could the old behaviour be introduced as an option?
Grateful for any thoughts.
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| DAGM_05.mscz | 17.6 KB |
| DAGM_05-MS4.pdf | 45.96 KB |
| DAGM_05-MS3.pdf | 46.87 KB |
Comments
Instead of making the missing items invisible, how about changing their colour? You could mimic the MU3 behaviour pretty much exactly if you used the correct shade of light grey.
In reply to Instead of making the… by SteveBlower
I had been thinking of making them the background colour. But since they are printed above the stave lines, they would interrupt these quite nastily (see attached screenshot)
In reply to I had been thinking of… by Stefan Hagel
When I use invisible rests in MS 3.6.2 I move them all below the stave, to avoid collisions if possible:
1. Choose _ Select > More... > Element type: Rest > Same stave + Same voice_
2. Use Inspector (MS3) or Properties (MS4) to change vertical Offset
In reply to When I use invisible rests … by DanielR
Please note that this does not address the problem in the OP, which concerns MS 4, and explicitly not MS 3.
Also, you are manually avoiding a (different) problem, while we need automatic behaviour when processing lots of documents.
While I'm not fully understanding the purpose of these invisible rests - is it to leave space you can then write in by hand? - I can suggest trying the beta of 4.1 (see Announcements forum) which treats them differently, more similar to MU3. It was deliberately that in 4.0 the invisible rests would no longer take space as it was really a bug, but I think it was realized many people were relying on this bug.
FWIW, you can also set rests or other elements behind the staff by pressing the "To back" button in the Properties panel (in 3.6.2 you would set an appropriate low value for Stacking order).
In reply to While I'm not fully… by Marc Sabatella
It's horrible in MS3 that invisible notes and rests take up any space at all. Will there be an option in MS4 to switch off this bug compatibility spacing?
In reply to It's horrible in MS3 that… by yonah_ag
Why would you ever be adding invisible notes or rests except for spacing purposes? If the idea is for playback, the way to do that has always been to use a separate invisible staff.
In reply to Why would you ever be adding… by Marc Sabatella
In earlier scores I used tied hidden notes to improve guitar sustain playback. I had not come across the idea of a whole hidden staff. It seemed very odd that hidden elements should affect layout in any way. (Clearly the developers agreed with this line of reasoning with MS4.0).
In reply to In earlier scores I used… by yonah_ag
Indeed, if we had it all to do over, invisible notes/rest never would have affected layout in the first place, and we'd have come up with some other method to produce the special layout effects this is often used for. And on the surface it seemed like a good idea to remove this, but in reality there are quite a few scores relying on it.
To be honest I don't recall if these were conscious decisions, and I'm not finding the specific issues or PR's that triggered the changes. So I could be off in the details.
But my own feeling is, we should continue to support the ability to use invisible rests for spacing, but if you wish to disable that, the natural way to do it would be to disable autoplace for the rest (same with notes). Right now this has no effect. So I'd support seeing that added - disable autoplace on rests to have them take no space. Feel free to submit an issue. THen maybe someone who does remember more about why it is the way it is might want to comment further.
In reply to Indeed, if we had it all to… by Marc Sabatella
Sidenote: Sibelius always had invisible notes affect layout. Recently they changed it to not affect layout but kept the old behaviour as option. Wise!
In reply to Sidenote: Sibelius always… by musikai
If I understand correctly, in MusicXML the attribute "print-spacing" (defaulting to "yes") would control precisely this dichotomy of potentially meaningful choices.
In reply to Sidenote: Sibelius always… by musikai
A good solution.
In reply to While I'm not fully… by Marc Sabatella
Thank you, this was extremely helpful. I apologise for not having tried the beta before I wrote - indeed it solves most of the problems and I hope this behaviour makes it into the official release.
Your other idea of sending the elements to the background would also be a viable workaround (though with the drawback that an exported SVG would only work on one specific background colour).
As to the purpose of the invisible rests, no, nothing is written by hand. Sometimes they just create an empty space to give a good idea of how much music is lost; in other instances, this same space is also required for accommodating the lyrics below (which are technically tied to the invisible rests).