Confusing notice when quantizing midi file
When I hit the "APPLY" button, I get this message (see attachment). I don't really know what it means. It is asking a question that has a Yes/No answer, but those aren't the choices. Do I hit "Save" in order to quantize? Would hitting "Discard" also quantize but not save it? It not very explanatory. Yes, I RTFM but it doesn't have any explanation. It seems to imply that by hitting one of the buttons (save?, either button?), it will close the file. I don't want the file closed. I want to quantize without saving and without closing the file. BTW: the file never actually closes, so I don't know WTF it is doing.
Oddly, when I hit "Cancel" it cancels the quantize but ALSO reverses any changes to the midi file (notes, measures, etc) I did before quantizing. Why would it do that? What is it saving? Is it saving the before quantization midi file in case you wanna reverse the quantization?
I am using 3.6.2, but it has had this confusing message since at least 3.0.
Thanks for any help/advice.
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Comments
From my experience, this message means that you have to save the midi file as an mscz file before making any further changes.
Don't think of the MIDI import dialog as modifying your file as it exists now - all it does is re-import your original MIDI file with different settings, thus throwing away any other edits you have done. That is what this dialog is trying to warn you - that you have made changes you will lose if you choose to start over by re-importing the MIDI with new settings.
In reply to Don't think of the MIDI… by Marc Sabatella
Ok, Mark. Not sure what you mean by "re-import". In order to re-import, you had to have imported it first. How am I re-importing it? All I did was go to File>Open, then chose the Midi file I want to open. Is that called "importing" the file. I don't wanna re-import. All I want to do is apply the quantization changes to the existing file without saving it - I will explicitly save later by File>save. What button does the re-importing? The Save button, Discard Button or Cancel Button? It is not very clear. Also, the dialog mentions closing the file. What is closing? After hitting, Save or Discard or Cancel, the midi file is still open. It doesn't close.
Seem like dialog is worded very confusingly.
In reply to Ok, Mark. Not sure what you… by odelphi231
Indeed the manual is not very clear. It only refers to the APPLY button in relation to re-import. I would think it would make more sense if the APPLY button had its own heading. We see button in the import panel. Why would you select it if you didn't want to apply the changes. Much like the SAVE button.
In reply to Indeed the manual is not… by bobjp
Bob, I don't really care about the manual wording - even though I agree it is not very clear. My point is that the dialog box that opens doesn't give clear indication what the Save, Discard and Cancel buttons are supposed to do and they clearly don't Save, Discard or Cancel anything. The dialog box asks a Yes/No question but doesn't give Yes or No as the choices. Actually, I have learned the discard button seems to reload (re-import) the midi file from the last time it was saved, but why is it called "Discard".
In reply to Bob, I don't really care… by odelphi231
They save/discard the score as you're currently seeing it (or cancel out of the operation completely) as changing settings in the import panel and pressing that apply button creates a completely new score which is then filled by reading in the MIDI file contents and applying the settings from that import panel.
Nothing about that import panel has any effect on the score you're seeing; it results in replacing that score with a new one. Thus upon closing off the temporary score result of the previous import operation, you are given the choice on what to do with that.
In reply to They save/discard the score… by jeetee
Jeetee, that is a great explanation but let me make sure I understand what you are saying. If I hit save, it FIRST saves the midi file on my C-drive, creates a completely new score from the saved file, THEN applies the quantization setting in the panel. If I hit Discard, it Applies the quantization setting without FIRST saving the score and Cancel doesn't do anything. Is that right? BTW: Hitting Cancel oddly creates a new tab with the score. I don't know what version of the score is in the new tab - a quantized version or the original version.
The dialog box text is still confusing. Here is my suggestion for the wording of the dialog box: "Do you want to save the score before applying quantization or not Save the score before applying quantization?" The buttons can be "Save" "Not Save". You can still have the "Cancel" button without explanation because everyone should know what Cancel does - it cancels the quantization.
In reply to Jeetee, that is a great… by odelphi231
MuseScore doesn't save the MIDI file at all.
So what happens when you open your MIDI file is that that file isn't really opened at all, but imported. It is done so using the default settings shown in that midi import panel. What you get to see is a new score (mscz) resulting from those settings; you never get to see the MIDI file.
As long as you don't change anything in that generated score, you can continue to change the import settings and press the apply button to see that imported score being replaced by a new one, using the new settings.
This all changes as soon as you make any manual adjustments in that generated score; from then on you'll also see the "*" indication in the score tab showing it has unsaved changes.
If you now again try to change MIDI import settings and press the Apply button, MuseScore no longer can replace the generated file automatically, as it contains your changes. As such it poses you the question of what it should do with this file?
Option one is to save it: You are offered to save the current version to a file (mscz) on your disk, after which MuseScore continues to generate a new score again.
The second option is to discard it: MuseScore will close the current version without saving it, after which it continues to generate a new score again.
The final option is to cancel: MuseScore will leave the current version "as is", won't close it off, nor save it to disk; it just remains open in its current state. After which it continues to generate a new score again.
So every time your press "Apply" MuseScore generates a new score; as long as you don't alter such a generated score, MuseScore will Discard it upon the next Apply. But as soon as you've changed the score, then it will not throw away your intentional changes without first asking you whether you're OK with that. And that is what that question is all about.
In reply to MuseScore doesn't save the… by jeetee
Thank you Jeetee. Can you please put that great explanation in the documentation manual so that we NOW know what happens when you quantize. Or I don't mind copy/pasting your explanation in the manual. Currently, the manual has virtually NO explanation as to what happens when you quantize and NO explanation what the SAVE, DISCARD and CANCEL buttons actually do.
I didn't know that you are not actually opening the midi file. So when it saves it, the C-drive version of the midi file is not changed (that is good to know), it creates a NEW mcsz file. BTW: Where does it put that mcsz file? It doesn't ask me where to put it?
In reply to Thank you Jeetee. Can you… by odelphi231
I've expanded the handbook about reimport a little bit to refer to these options.
Be aware that the MIDI import options are about much more than just quantizing the import.
I'm not quite sure where the file is saved; I'm assuming your default scores folder, but I'm not sure at all.
In reply to I've expanded the handbook… by jeetee
Thanks. I looked at your changes to the handbook - much better than before. However, it would be nice if you could add the wording in your comment, about each button, to the handbook. That explanation is very complete and clear. Also, it would be nice if you could state in the handbook that you aren't actually opening the midi file, but importing a copy of the midi file so that the original is never touched. That is great information that would be nice to know.
In reply to Thanks. I looked at your… by odelphi231
In defense of the handbook, the whole page is called "Importing" MIDI. Might do with a bit more rewrite on that page if/when time permits.
But again, that question and dialog is not really related to importing a MIDI file at all, but to closing a file (any file) which has unsaved changes. So if the longer description should go anywhere, it should be on that page.
In reply to In defense of the handbook,… by jeetee
Thanks. I agree that putting the quantization in the Import MIDI section of the manual is a bit odd. Probably should have a separate Quantization section. Especially since quantization has its own panel. I think that dialog and question probably needs to go where ever it may pop up while using Musescore.
In reply to Thanks. I agree that… by odelphi231
I wasn't even aware that MuseScore was any good at quantizing; so now you've got me totally confused about which panel you refer to as the "quantization panel"..
In reply to I wasn't even aware that… by jeetee
The MIDI import panel that appears upon import has a quantization option, of sorts. It's not really quantizing anything, but just determines how the time positions and durations are represented visually in the score. So be by default it might be rounding off all notes values to the nearest eighth or whatever, although even then, it won't be ruthless about it - if you've got what are clearly four sixteenths evenly spread within a beat, that's what you'll see. But if there is just a single note in the beat, and its start time is somewhere between the beat and the "and", it will be rounded off one way or the other.
In reply to Thanks. I agree that… by odelphi231
To be clear: MsueScore has no quantization whatsoever except on import of a MIDI file. There is no ability whatsoever to take a score that has already been imported - or for that matter, a score that was created directly within MuseScore - and then quantize that. No such capability has ever existed. The only time any form of quantization occurs in MuseScore is at the exact moment of MIDI import. That is why the only place you see that word used within MuseScore or in the handbook that accompanies it is in the MIDI import panel - no other place.
In reply to Ok, Mark. Not sure what you… by odelphi231
Import mean taking a file that is not in MuseScore format and somehow getting MsueScore to open it. If you have a MIDI file and you are viewing it in MuseScore, you imported it. That happens automatically when you select a MIDI file in the File / Open dialog - or indeed, if you select any non-native format (anything by MSCZ or MSCX).
The quantization done by the MIDI import panel only happens at the moment of import - there is no facility to quantize later. So if you hit the Apply button in the MIDI import panel, you are telling MuseScore, I want to start start all over with the original MIDI file, please throw away any other work I've done on it meanwhile and instead re-import it using these new settings.
If you haven't made any changes to the score yourself since importing, it will gladly oblige. if you have made changes since the import, though, it asks you if you are sure you're OK with throwing that away and starting over from the origins MIDI file again. If you want to preserve the work you've done, you will need to accept the offer to save the result to an actual MuseScore file. Then it will reimport the MIDI file so you can begin anew.
In reply to Import mean taking a file… by Marc Sabatella
Marc,
Like I told Jeetee, your explanation is great. It would be nice if what you said was in the manual. Could you please add what you said to the manual. You said things that I (and I am sure others) didn't know. The biggie for me is I didn't know when you hit "Apply" you are telling Musescore, "I wanna start over". "Apply" is a weird word to use to mean "I wanna start over". To me it means, apply the settings in the quantization panel. If you hit apply, don't like the result, you can tweak and hit APPLY again. That is my understanding of the apply button.
It also think it odd what you said in your last paragraph. You said, "If you want to preserve the work you've done, you will need to accept the offer to save the result to an actual MuseScore file. Then it will reimport the MIDI file so you can begin anew." To me, you hit save after you have finished your quantization and want to finally save it - not to "begin anew". To me, you keep hitting "Apply" until you get the results you want, THEN hit save to finally save what you did. I thought, when you changed something, it would iteratively save it (in a temp file, not permanently alter the original) and move forward from that point.
Apparently, I have a complete misunderstanding of the whole process of importing a MIDI file and applying quantization. Though, that misunderstanding is, ironically, understandable since the manual is very vague on the whole process and uses words for functions in an odd way.
In reply to Marc, Like I told Jeetee,… by odelphi231
I'm not sure what about the Handbook you found confusing, but do note it like the code itself is open source. So if you have a wording you thinking might be clearer somehow, feel free to make the change.
I think what you are missing here is the very definition of "import". It does already imply starting over. So the thing to clarify, I guess, is that Apply re-imports the file.
Regaridng saving, I think you are still confused somehow. Let me try an analogy:
Let's say you had a a coffeemaker you could set for Normal or Strong brew. That's the import - you're importing beans and water and making coffee. Let's say you choose weak. Now you take your coffee and add sugar and cream and taste it, and decide it's too weak. It's too late to fix your coffee now just by pressing the Strong button, you're going to have to make a new cup - start over with a new import operation. Now, whether you throw away the first cup or save it is a totally separate question, but no getting around it - that cup is not going to be fixed. You've got to brew (import) a new cup.
Same here with your MIDI file. Once imported, you aren't going to magically fix the quantization in this file - it's already brewed. All you can do is import it again. And just like your coffee, you've got to do something with the already-imported file. You can throw it away or save it, up to you. But no getting around it - that score is not going to be fixed. You've to import (brew) a new version.
In reply to I'm not sure what about the… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks. Not sure about the coffee analogy, but I get the point. Once you import the midi file, you cannot quantize the file. The file is already quantized based on the default settings. If you want to re-quantize, or quantize based on different setting (16th note, rather than 8th note) you have to change the settings, THEN reimport the midi file. What does the reimportation - SAVE, DISCARD, or CANCEL, any of them, none of them? Or do you just change the settings, then do file>open again?
Based on what you and Jeetee said, I may try my hand at editing the manual to make it clearer to doofs like me.
In reply to Thanks. Not sure about the… by odelphi231
As I said, when you hit Apply, it re-imports the MIDI file. The current imported score is abandoned. Whether it saved first depends on whether you had made any edits and what you answer when MuseScore asks you what to do with it :-). Basically, it's exactly as if you hit "close" on score - any score, not just MIDI import. If you've made no changes since you opened it, it is closed with no fanfare. if you made changes, MuseScore asks if you want to save those changes. If you say yes, it saves. If you say no, it doesn't. Simple as that. Shouldn't really require any special explanation except to clarify that hitting Apply really does close your current score and re-import the MIDI file to create a new one.
In reply to As I said, when you hit… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks Marc. I am slowly getting it. Do you think the word "Apply" is still the right word in light of what the button REALLY does? I would call it "Re-Import". But that is just me. That would better explain what is happ'n and warn the user that the file is being re-imported. I know it ALSO applies the new quantize settings, but that can be explained in the manual. Until you explained it, I didn't know that apply actually re-imports the file. There is no notice of that. The dialog box talks about closing the file, not reimporting it. I would also reword the dialog box warning to be more descriptive of what it actually does.
UPDATE: I am going to try to edit the manual to better explain what the buttons do. I need additional clarification on what the SAVE button does. You said that if you hit SAVE it saves the imported score somewhere (who knows where). Does Musescore then reimport that SAVED score to apply the new import settings, or is that SAVED score just out there somewhere and it never gets touched again?
In reply to Thanks Marc. I am slowly… by odelphi231
Well, it does apply the settings in the dialog - but to a new import. So "re-import" might be more descriptive indeed. Worth posting as a suggestion to the issue tracker. I suspect this is all being re-designed for MuseScore 4 anyhow though.
Save saves the score. Not sure what additional clarification you would need? But the saved score is a score, not a MIDI file. So the word "import" doesn't apply to that file. It's just a score, same as any other saved score, there for you to do what you wish with - touch it or not, that's your business. I don't know that the Handbook needs to be in the business of advising you what you can do with a saved score.
In reply to Well, it does apply the… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks. That is what I thought happened but I wanted to be sure when I update the manual. I wanna put sumtin about nuthin happ'ns to your saved score when you hit Apply. One reason I asked is because it would be nice if you can iteratively change the midi score with your changes and with import panel changes until you get exactly what you want. However, I have learned that was never the intention of the import panel. My bad.
Now, that I have thought more about it, using "Apply" rather then "Reimport" is just as good as long as you RTFM and understand what "Apply" actually does. It reimports AND Applies import panel settings.
In reply to Marc, Like I told Jeetee,… by odelphi231
OK. So here is my limited understanding, as I don't work with midi. But who knows, someday I might.
I import a midi file. What I see open is a standard mscz file. The bottom of the screen contains the midi import panel, which tells me how the midi was interpreted. As I understand it, there most likely won't be anything that needs changing. I can close the panel. If I were to save the mscz at this point, I would have both the original midi and a copy of the original mscz. I can make changes to the mscz as needed. If I need a new midi based on the new mscz, I can do that.
It seems like the import panel is a formality. For the most part. Unless you change a quantization figure. At that point it might be easier to export the midi.