Inserting a titletext
I have tried to insert a title at the third staff of a score.
Marked first note in the third staff
First Way:
Add->Title. The result was a titlebox at the head of the score.
Second way
Add-> Vertical Frame -> RightcLick on the Frame -> Add Title
The result was a titlebox at the third staff.
Afterward I opened the score with a texteditor.
No difference in the xml-text.
Logical or inconsistent behavior?
Comments
I am trying to repair a converted capella file. See the attached file. Page 1 at the end. Anfang_g-e_Ueberarbeitung.mscz
There is a layoutbreak at the end of the second melodie "Die vier Jahreszeiten".
The new melodie "Meine Niola" start at page 2.
I have inserted the titletext with a vertical and a text frame. The Title "Meine Nicola" is standing always at the end of page 1.
I know, I can use a page break.
But I think a software should be clever enough to know, if a title text belong to a staff in the beginning of a page, it should not be placed at the end of the side before.
In reply to I am trying to repair a by hasenfuss
The Software knows that it is a frame. And it knows that it contains some text, but whether it really is a title, or just some text that is using the titel style on purpose or by accident or convenience, is beyond its knowledge and needs a mind reader.
Just add a page break and be done with it, IMHO not worth any complicated special casing in the software that may get it wrong in about the same number of cases it gets it right.
In reply to The Software knows that it is by Jojo-Schmitz
Not really. One of the advantages of musescore is the automatic formatting of the score. This was the thing I always hated on capella, that formating was very manual.
Working with page break up, destroies the automatic formatting.
And it is not a special case, if a teacher put some songs together in one score. It is very normal.
And if you would look to the whole score, the problem is really often.
In reply to Not really. One of the by hasenfuss
How would adding a page break destroy the automatic formatting, if all you want is that exactly that page break is done automatically?
In reply to How would adding a page break by Jojo-Schmitz
If you would read the xml structure of the document, you would realize, if you are really a softwaredeveloper, it is not so diffuclt, to realize that in the content of the textbox or in the frame is text with the textstyle title.
It is also readable that there are following a timesignature and a measure number 1. The clear sign for beginning a new piece.
If there are 20 manual break down in a score and you change one, you have normaly to change the other 19 one. I thought a expierenced softwaredevloper of your age should now that.
In reply to If you would read the xml by hasenfuss
It is even much easier than that, a section break followed by vertical frame should be enough to detect that and add a page break automatically, but I don't see why this is different in the layout vs. a manualy applied page break at the same place, the layout would be exactly the same.
And I really don't see what my age has got to do with this.
In reply to Not really. One of the by hasenfuss
I have looked at your score, and it is, as you said, made up of a number of short songs, each with its own title.
The way you laid this out is fairly standard for publishing a beginner-level songbook, and as Jojo said, all you have to do is insert page breaks where they are needed (and deal with some of the xml import anomolies, but those are not the issue at hand).
The problem as I see it is that you appear to think that a graphics program should do all the layout work for you. But laying out a piece of printed material is part of the design process; it is therefore an artistic endeavour which requires the designer to make judgements. If you want a computer programmer to make all your design decisions for you, you're going to have to accept a very basic, limited design, because programmers are not graphic designers, and graphic designers are not programmers. Yes, they consult when developing a graphics program, but the two arts--that of writing computer-readable code which will elegantly and efficiently solve a problem without conflicting with the solutions to other problems, and that of designing a visual product which will please and interest the human eye without causing readability and legibility problems--are essentially different.
Possibly users working at a very basic level would accept a design created by a totally automated program, but for anyone who wants to produce a more sophisticated printed product, the decisions made by such a program will often create more work than they will save.
As a simple example, think about how hard (or impossible) it can be to force MS Word (a program designed for use by non-designers) to do something different to its default settings. For instance, it's convenient to have the program order a list automatically, but the time it takes to find and re-set all the parameters can be substantial and it has to be re-done for every new instance of an ordered list, because it reverts to default. That sort of thing will have a designer gnashing his teeth and going round the bend in short order.
MuseScore has some very basic page-makeup parameters set by default so that while you are doing the input, you can see a rough pagination for what you have completed. But OTOH, in MuseScore those basic parameters are drop-dead easy to find and modify, and they stay modified, too. That sort of flexibility enables a designer to produce a final score which looks as good or better than anything produced by the most expensive scorewriter on the market, and to do it without tearing his hair out.
In reply to I have looked at your score, by Recorder485
It is better for the artistic to separate a title text from his staff by default?
MS Word (a program designed for use by non-designers) to do something different to its default settings. For instance, it's convenient to have the program order a list automatically, but the time it takes to find and re-set all the parameters can be substantial and it has to be re-done for every new instance of an ordered list, because it reverts to default. That sort of thing will have a designer gnashing his teeth and going round the bend in short order.
If I am not lost in translation, you do not know word.
In reply to It is better for the artistic by hasenfuss
I know 'Word' well enough to force it to produce reasonably-professional-quality typography, in spite of the fact it was not designed for that purpose. The example I gave was a convenient one, but there are other things that the program simply will not do without the user beating it to death with a sledgehammer.
Word was designed for use by office secretaries and freelance writers, because there are a LOT more of them in the marketplace than there are professional typographers, and Microsoft is interested in sales volume, not product quality. Few professional graphic designers will use Word for anything other than importing keystrokes from authors or editors into a program that gives them the ability to produce real typography and page make-up. It is apparent that you do not understand the distinction between what Word produces and what can be produced by a dedicated graphics program...but that is not surprising as most non-professionals (including 99% of Word users) don't either. Microsoft is happy about that.
As to the question of MuseScore separating a 'title text' from the staff by default, you need to understand that there is a difference between a 'title' and a 'subtitle' or a 'section title'. When you create a score, there should be only ONE main title; all subsequent titles you might need to add should fall into one of those other categories.
MuseScore makes it easy to do what you want; your objections to the way the program works are, to say the least, less than compelling. And I did not appreciate your nasty comments to Jojo Schmitz, either.
In reply to I know 'Word' well enough to by Recorder485
Sorry, it do not matter whether I use title or subtitle. A subtitle of a staff shown automaticly on the page before is nonsense. It is possible to move a text fixed on the last staff on page 15 to page 13.
Objects which belong to one staff should be shown by default at the same page.
Word was designed for use by office secretaries and freelance writers, because there are a LOT more of them in the marketplace than there are professional typographers, and Microsoft is interested in sales volume, not product quality.
Yes I know all this kind of phrases since 30 years. I am interested in my time, in my result and in my work, not the requirements of other people, claiming my life would be better.
In reply to Sorry, it do not matter by hasenfuss
On that basis, I have little more to say to you other than to suggest you write your own program. Using MuseScore as is, I could fix the score you originally posted in less than three minutes, and show you how I did it in another three, but you're not interested, so good luck on your own.
In reply to Sorry, it do not matter by hasenfuss
I understand that you personally might want MuseScore to always force text frames to appear on the same page as the following staff, but other people have different needs. So the way MuseScore works allows you to have it either way. if you want to force the frame to the next page, simply add a page break before the frame, which takes all of three seconds. Or if you prefer to save space by fitting the text frame at the bottom of the previous page, simply leave it there. As with any good program, MuseScore offers you the choice.
In reply to I understand that you by Marc Sabatella
Sorry Mark, in the textframe is a title and a title which belongs to a staff is normally above a staff and not at the end on the page before.
Saying a "good program" I will show you something:
before deleting.mscz
after deleting.mscz Deleting with strg entf
after deleting vertical frames.mscz
after deleting layout breaks.mscz
At the end two systems and four pages. Musescore started in 2008? http://web.archive.org/web/20080515000000*/http://musescore.org Sorry,I can not take such things seriously.
In reply to Sorry Mark, in the textframe by hasenfuss
Not sure (once again) what you're complaining about, in 'after_deleting' you're not seeing much, as you switched on 'hide empty staves' -> everything works as intended and designed!
'before deleting' and 'after deleting' both have 440 measures, so you apparently did not use Ctrl+Del to remove the measures as you claimed, but just Del, so only removed the measures# content.
Sorry, but this really looks like an error between keyboard and chair to me.
The other 2 files suffer from tha same problem, loads of empty measures together with 'hide empts staves.
And I believe, this is the 1st article ever posted on MuseScore.org, on July 29, 2008 - 8:42pm. MuseScore itself is older though.
In reply to Sorry Mark, in the textframe by hasenfuss
Again, just because you personally like to use frames as a palce to put titles doens't mean tht is the only thing framers are good for. They have many purposes, some of which require their use at the bottom of pages. So forcing frames to always begin a new page would prevent people from having framers at the bottom of pages, which is very necessary behavior for very many purposes.
So again, if you personally want a frame at the begining of the page for whatever reaosn, simply add a page break before it. It takes three seconds.
In reply to I know 'Word' well enough to by Recorder485
Just trying around. Musescore use a XML structure also called markuplanguage.
Looking in the xml-score there are some interesting observation.
Should be the following staffs after a layout break a element of the layout break, what means beginning of a new section. Or should be the layout break a element of a staff.
But in reality there is a mess. File before deleting before deleting.mscz File after deleting.after deleting.mscz The result would be different, if there would be a clear structure, how the objects are relating.
The original file was: finnisches lied.mscz. I putted these files together via album. The result Finnisches Lied toghether.mscz.
Why is the last staff of the first appearance of the song different to the second appearance, without asking me.
This all would not happen, if staffs would be a element of a layout break, the better term would be layout section.
It would not happen, if the model of the score would be defined in a logical way.The main question is, what is the relation of the objects.
The boxmodel off CSS clarify the question. What is the box, what is the content of the box?
See
![structure.jpg]( "structure.jpg")
. There must be a model, where the elements can not jump out of the box. In musescore they are doing.
PS: If you join two scores together in the album function, musescore use a line break instead of a layout break.
If you join two scores together, what is the logical seperator a layout break or a line break. Is a new piece a new chapter or prosecution of the piece in the first score. Also musical scores have a logical structure. But musescore do not represent or reproduce that.
In daily work people like me need flexibility, because they are changing there stuff very often. We are not creating for eternity.
So my statement, if your statement is a relevant statement, musescore is no tool for teachers because quality is the main issue.
So it is more acceptable to say, it looks a little bad, but I have changed my lessonmaterial, because of a new better idea, than to say, I did not, because the software cause so much trouble, that it looks acceptable.
In reply to The Software knows that it is by Jojo-Schmitz
First of all, I haven't any problem to add page breaks.
But if I'm right I can insert a frame above a system, but append a frame only at the end of the score (?).
Maybe it also could be (maybe with a selectable entry) useful to append a frame as well under as above a system and musescore recognize the dependence between them (like "orphans" and "widows").
Or do I overlook something (except this would be more a DTP-Feature?)
In reply to First of all, I haven't any by kuwitt
Yoi can insert a frame before any measure (and even before another frame), just select it before the insert, you can append a frame to the end only.
In reply to Yoi can insert a frame before by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, I can insert a frame before a measure but append a frame to the end only. The reason for it is in my opinion not really conclusive, although I'm aware about that there are more important issues/feature requests.
In reply to Yes, I can insert a frame by kuwitt
'Append' and 'Insert' are two different things. I realise that English is not your first language, so please don't think I am criticising. 'Append' means 'add to the end of something;' 'Insert' means to 'add into the middle of something. Hope that helps.
Considering that English is not the first language of most of the principal writers of the code for MuseScore, the fact they have used these English terms absolutely correctly is worthy of a small tip of the hat. Unfortunately, from there, it is up to the user to interpret the words properly, and for people working in a second language that can be difficult. I speak and write French fluently, but even after thirty years, I still encounter words occasionally which make me pause and check a few different dictionaries. And I absolutely hate having to deal with a computer running the OS in French. ;o)
In reply to 'Append' and 'Insert' are two by Recorder485
'vi' disagrees with that, there insert means at (before) cursor, append means after cursor
In reply to 'vi' disagrees with that, by Jojo-Schmitz
Jojo, you're going to have to clarify the meaning of 'vi' for me; I'm not familiar with that acronym or abbreviation. ;o)
In reply to Jojo, you're going to have to by Recorder485
The editor in the Unix world.
In reply to The editor in the Unix world. by Jojo-Schmitz
Ah, thanks. Sounds like the developers of Unix don't grasp fine distinctions in English as well as you do. ;o)
In reply to 'Append' and 'Insert' are two by Recorder485
I don't see this as critism. Thanks for the correction between "insert" and "append".
(Yes english isn't my native language. I grew up in the GDR and the expressions I've learned there in the english lessons where first of all such as "socialism", "comrades" and so on - not really very useful ;).
What I meant concerning the subject of this thread that maybe it could be useful to have a possibility to insert a frame as well before as under a system/line (and not append exclusively at the end of a score) and musescore is aware of it that both (line of a stave and frame) belongs together.
I hope this is more understandable ;-).
In reply to I don't see this as critism. by kuwitt
As far as I know, MuseScore can insert framed text anywhere in a score, so I'm not sure I understand your suggestion. But you gave me a good giggle with your recitation of the GDR's typical English lessons.
One day, I hope to be sufficiently conversant in German to understand more than the standard musical terms such as Takt or Satz. ;o)
In reply to As far as I know, MuseScore by Recorder485
My confusion: I didn't notice in my last post, that it is also possible to insert frame under/behind a measure, when I mark instead an element of the first measure an element of another measure (But now I'm aware about this ;).
My suggestion: I wondered whether it would be useful in such a case a possibility to group a frame with another element (note/rest/measure...) - maybe with a check box in the inspecteur, so that musescore is aware that frame and element belong together and on the same page.
But these were just reflections of my mind (and maybe this is a very special case).
In reply to My confusion: I didn't notice by kuwitt
To make this simple: if you insert a vertical frame it is created immediately before the measure you selected. It it is the very first measure you get a frame before the music even starts. Append is only necessary for a frame after the last measure.
BTW if I have to enter a section tile I enter it as tempo text. That way it stays with the staff/system it is attached to and there is never a page break between title and staff.
You can modify the text in any way to make it look more like a title. You can move it away from the staff more than the default for tempo texts (you need to do this anyway for tempi if right there you have a bunch of leger lines). You can then insert a frame if necessary to create enough space for the title.
Furthermore if you need a title and a tempo at the same location (say "menuetto. allegretto") you can put that on two lines. You can even set the font size different for the two lines.
I think it is pointless to hunt for problems; I am fine with just solving the ones that are actually problems.