Score transposition
I'm trying to convert a cello part to tenor sax, requiring both a transposition up 2 half steps and conversion from bass clef to treble clef. Every attempt puts the notes way above the staff on ledger lines. Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong, or how I can accomplish my objectives?
Thanks
Carl Neste
Comments
Attaching the score (or even a few measures) containing the cello part, along with an explanation of what you expect to see when you transpose would be the way to go.
Barring that, here's my guess:
Assuming you have used the correct treble clef - not the 8va/8vb clef - you should be able to lower the notes above the ledger lines by selecting them and pressing Ctrl + down arrow. This will drop the selected notes by one octave, reducing the number of lines.
Regards.
In reply to Attaching the score (or even by Jm6stringer
So selecting the proper clef will do the correct transposition?
In reply to So selecting the proper clef by xavierjazz
Transposing up 2 half steps is what does the transposition, as per original poster. That's why score posting is the best route for problem resolution.
Regards.
In reply to Transposing up 2 half steps by Jm6stringer
Hi.
To me, that is not an answer to my question.
I'm trying to understand if it is user error or a bug.
In reply to Hi. To me, that is not an by xavierjazz
As recorder485 has mentioned, changing the instrument is the simplest way to go. Then, if necessary, adjusting the octave to fit within the playing range of the new instrument.
On the other hand...
The original poster seems to want an 'old school' (manual) tranposition and clef change from cello to sax. Without seeing the score, I don't know why he is taking that approach and if in fact it is user error (e.g. wrong octave treble clef) or a bug which puts the notes way above the staff.
(In any event, changing clefs should not transpose to a different key.)
Regards.
In reply to So selecting the proper clef by xavierjazz
First of all, change the instrument in the Staff Properties (right click on the cello staff>Staff Properties) from cello to tenor sax. That will take care of the key transposition required to reflect the change to a transposing instrument. (Make sure you have the "Concert Pitch" icon unchecked in the main toolbar.) It will also put the proper clef on the staff for the tenor sax.
Second, if there is a problem with the original part being in the wrong octave, just select all the notes on that staff and then raise or lower then an octave as needed.
In reply to First of all, change the by Recorder485
Great, thanks. I am still curious about your last para.: "Second, if there is a problem with the original part being in the wrong octave, just select all the notes on that staff and then raise or lower then an octave as needed."
I know that. However, if there is no bug, why might it be in the wrong octave?
In reply to Great, thanks. I am still by xavierjazz
I think this is pure pilot error, not a bug. Music copied/pasted or transposed from another instrumet could be in the wrong octave quite easily. If you take an original flute part and change the instrument to contrabass viol, you're definitely going to wind up with the notes in the wrong octave, for instance.
I know the range of cellos because I work with them often; but I don't work with saxophones more than once a century, so I don't know the range of them off the top of my head. When I need to know such things, I look them up. I didn't take the time to do that before writing my suggestion to the OP. Possibly the range of a tenor sax and a cello are similar enough that this transcription will work without adjusting octaves. If not, kicking a part up or down an octave is a three-click process. No biggie.
In reply to I think this is pure pilot by Recorder485
Yes I understand how easy it is to change an apparent problem.
What I have been hung up on is this: "First of all, change the instrument in the Staff Properties (right click on the cello staff>Staff Properties) from cello to tenor sax. "
....."change the instrument in the Staff Properties".....
Your comment about flute and contrabass viol seems to solve it for me.
I was not taking into account that the 2 instrument's fundamentals were in different parts of the frequency spectrum. I was assuming, for example, 2 instruments in different keys (eg. alto and tenor sax) both sounding, say, A 440, an exact pitch transposition.
I would expect that if I notated concert A 440 in alto sax, and then ... "change(d) the instrument in Staff Properties ..." the concert pitch would remain and not have one instrument show A 440 and the other A 880.
While I am not all that familiar with the cello, I think it has a similar fundamental frequency range to the tenor sax, so I was surprised that one would have to adjust the octave.
Your example about flute and contrabass viol is well taken
I hope I'm clear.
To sum up: concert a 440 should appear in the proper octave when changing instruments. It may be out of the range of a particular instrument, but should appear in the proper octave.
The only reason to change octaves would be to make an "A" playable by another instrument, but it's fundamental may not be 440 cps.
In reply to First of all, change the by Recorder485
Too late to edit my original comment, but I need to correct it to the extent of saying that the proper clef is NOT necessarily applied when changing instruments in Staff Properties. This has been reported as a bug here: https://musescore.org/en/node/114501. So the user will have to change to the proper clef manually. In the case of the tenor sax, for parts in transposed notation, that is the standard treble clef; for any part or score in concert pitch that would be the 8vb treble clef.
Sorry I didn't see that bug report earlier. I have never personally experienced this bug because I don't often do the kinds of transcriptions wherein it would become an issue.
Therefore, it appears that the best and easiest way for the OP to do his transcription would be to create a NEW staff for the tenor sax in the Instruments dialogue ("I"), and then copy the music from the cello staff and paste it into the tenor sax staff. (That is how the first image example below was produced, BTW.) He can then delete the cello staff if it is no longer needed.
Tenor sax doesn't transpose by two half steps; it transposes two half steps *plus an octave*. That is, it sounds a major ninth lower than written, not a major second. So the lowest "C" for cello - two ledger lines below the staff - will translate into the "D" on the middle line in the bass clef, or four ledger lines below the staff in treble clef. But even middle C - a relatively high note for cello - would turn into only the "D" on the staff in treble clef for tenor sax. You'd have to have an extremely high cello part to ever get ledger lines above the treble clef staff even once transposed a ninth.
Without seeing your score, it's still hard to say if you are actually encountering some sort of problem or if it was just a misunderstanding. But converitng a cello part to teno saxo would not normally result in ledger lines above the staff at all.
In reply to Tenor sax doesn't transpose by Marc Sabatella
I think the OP must have written 'ledger lines above' when he meant 'below'. You are quite right that with the proper transposition and clef for tenor sax, getting anything above the staff would require a very high cello part--written up a seventh or higher on the A string.
OTOH, if the OP transcribed manually by only two half steps, did not take the octave into account, and changed the key sig manually as well as the clef (to treble), then he would wind up with something like this: