Sustaining Guitar Notes
Hey Team- just a basic question. I have a song which the first measure is basically plucking and sustaining the notes of an E minor chord on the guitar. When I put that in MusicScore the notes each play and stop, but in reality they sustain throughout the measure. How do I write the notes so that they essentially "hold" till the end of the measure?
Thanks in advance!
Comments
Not sure to understand but you are maybe looking for Voices
In reply to Not sure to understand but by [DELETED] 5
Just to clarify- when I play the notes on the guitar I don't silence them, I let them ring out. I want to write the notes in MS so that they ring for the whole measure, and not silence. So, if a 4/4 measure has 4 notes in it, the first note should keep ringing until the end of the measure, as should the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th. I can't believe that I have to add a whole new layer for each not that needs to sustain. Is this what slurs accomplish? Sorry for my newbie-like question, but I don't think voices is a readily usable solution to having notes sustain.
In reply to Clarification by Smohrman
See: http://musescore.org/en/handbook/voices
Also, I believe that there are musical issues here which may not be addressable in these forums. I'm sure others will respond.
Regards,
In reply to Clarification by Smohrman
If you're talkng about four notes that all start and end toether, that's one voice - a whole note. If you're talking about one note that starts one beat 1 and lasts foir a whole measure, then a second note that enters on beat 2 (while the first note is still playing) and lasts for the rest of the measure, then another that enters on 3, and another that enters on 4, this is indeed what multiple 'voices" are intended for. Not just in MuseScore, but in Western notation in general. You need separate voices to make it clear when each voice enters - showing the rests that lead up to its entrance. Classical guitar literature is full of this sort of notation; same with piano.
In reply to If you're talkng about four by Marc Sabatella
Thanks
In reply to If you're talkng about four by Marc Sabatella
So...the method you describe is how anyone would write out guitar chords that are finger-plucked and not strummed for example? Because those notes should carry and in open tuning it's really important that they carry even for multiple measures to get that "droning" effect. Sorry, not a musical notation expert =0)
In reply to So...the method you describe by Smohrman
There are two basic methods. If you wish to make the first note explicitly a whole note and the second start before it has finished, then yes, multiple voices are the way to do it - and you need to leading quarter rest in the second voice or else the player won't know when that dotted half comes in. Likewise for each of the other notes. The other method is just to write four quarter notes in one voice, with an indication on each to "let ring" (often abbreviated L.R., sometimes accomapnied by a tie marking that is open ended on the right. MuseScore doesn't directly support ties to nowhere, but you can fake it using slurs, or by adding an invisible note as the target of the tie. I'd say the quarter note with L.R. Indication is kind of a special case situation, really used only for straight arpeggios in simple rhythm. But if it's anything more complex than that, notating it with multiple voices would be preferable, I think.
Best way I know to get a feel for this is to actually look at professionally published classical guitar music from a variety of sources. I think you'll find multiple voices used in almost every measure of almost every piece, but you could look at 100 pages before finding an example of the L.R. notation. On the other hand, you'll see just four quarter notes pretty often, with no specific indication to let them ring, and if they are notes of a chord that would ordinarily be taken on different strings, I have a feeling many guitarists would choose to let them ring without you needing to tell them, if it seemed right for the context.
In reply to There are two basic methods. by Marc Sabatella
Awesome explanation- THANKS! I think that tells me precisely what I need to know. I really appreciate your help!
God Bless-
Scott
Can all the notes of a piece be entered and then separated into different voices?
In reply to Guitar, sustain, voices - editing after entering... possible? by BruceDover
You mean you entered them as chords - multiple notes on one stem in one voice - and you want to separate those into separatenotes in separate voices? If so, then you could look at the Explode plugin (see the Plugins in the menu at right of this page). It is designed to extract thw individual lines to different staves, but you could then exchange voices and combine the staves into one. How well it would work would depend on what the music you are actually dealing with looks like. If you don't have the same number of notes in each chord consistently, it wouldn't work so well.
In reply to You mean you entered them as by Marc Sabatella
I thumb&finger pick the notes of a chord. The pick-points are ~1/8th notes but many of the notes are held until I change to another chord. It doesn't look like explode would work. I have started entering using different voices but it is (whining) tedious... I was/am hoping there's an editing function , e.g like properties: why isn't the voice of a note an editable property?
Would explode help? Doesn't look like it.
Also: Explode isn't in my installation and looks like a beta version no?
I just started using MuseScore... to learn to read... and got sidetracked into writing stuff I've been playing for >35 years.
In reply to I looked online at that plugin - doesn't help finger picking by BruceDover
I don't know if this will help, but in piano we use the pedals to sustain notes longer than they are notated.
Could those pedal marks be of use?
The held notes are not notated that way but to anyone who has used pedals, they are quite easy to understand and apply.
Regards,
In reply to Hi. by xavierjazz
But does it sustain on play-back?
I tried explode but - since I am not simultaneously plucking - there is nothing to explode.
In reply to Seems like a pedal function by BruceDover
Try it.
Do you know where they are and how to deposit them?
Here's a place to start: http://musescore.org/en/search/apachesolr_search/pedal%20marks
Regards,
In reply to I looked online at that plugin - doesn't help finger picking by BruceDover
The voice isn't just a property of a note because it's not that simple. A voice - Western notation in general and presumably therefore in MuseScore as well - is a series of notes and rests with no gaps and no overlaps. Taking a note out of one voice and moving it to another introduces a gap in one voice and overlap in the other, so the program would have to rearrange other notes to accomodate this. Thus, it would seem it can't be a simple note property. It's an editing operation that potentially affects the entire measure.
Could you be more specific about what you are trying to do, perhaps attaching actual MuseScore files? Entering notes directly into multiple voices should not be particularly difficult - no more so than entering them into a single voice. Assuming, of course, you've already thought through the question of which notes go into which voice. But you'd have to do that if writing it out by hand, too.
In reply to The voice isn't just a by Marc Sabatella
I may get there but it is, in fact... is there a shortcut key for the numbered voices? Is 4 the limit to the number of voices?
Anyway: in the attached I try to pick and hold the D (string) the G (at the 2nd fret, so A), D (+), F#, then D+ A, D...
something I could do on guitar when I was 12
In reply to trying voices, see attached by BruceDover
clutters up the page but less than multiple voices
In reply to trying voices, see attached by BruceDover
I forget what the default shortcuts are, but you can assign custom shortcuts to switching voices and most other commands via Edit->Preferences Shortcuts.
Yes, four is the maximum number of voices. It would be pretty rare to need even that many, though. I couldn't open your attachment, so I can't say how I'd recommend notating it. But I think it is pretty standard to simply notate basic finger picking patterns / arpeggios with just a single voice and not worrying about making the note values overlap, except maybe the bass note.
In reply to I forget what the default by Marc Sabatella
maybe ' is illegal character.
I maybe sidetracked trying to get the right sound, but it's an important part of the sound. Synthesized reproductions will not allow one to hear unpleasant combinations (more ignorance) when I try adding other instruments.
But, thanks very much for the help.
It also seems, perhaps, useful to separate one guitar into a upper and lower set of staves like a piano... Since I'm a newb I doubt it will be easier or even headed right... opinions?
In reply to 2nd try at upload by BruceDover
In my backing track programming days I had to write a lot of both strummed and picked guitar parts in a MIDI sequencer, and I found that the most effective way of getting the notes to sustain as they would be performed was with the Sustain event which if I recall correctly is MIDI controller 64.
You simply put a Sustain on event (Controller value >64) on the the first note of the chord, and then a Sustain off event (controller value=0) at the end of it, which I believe would be achieveable with the Pedalling symbols in MuseScore.
Score attached :)
You will need to fiddle with the timing of the Sustain off event probably by entering the pedalling events on separate stave using the same MIDI channel.
Do bear in mind though that MuseScore is not a fullblown MIDI sequencer and you won't have the same control that you would in something like Rosegarden - MuseScore's playback abilities are merely suitable for proofing scores not fullblown performance.
In reply to Try using the sustain pedal by ChurchOrganist
Thanks very much. I think that works very well.
.... actually it works about 1/3 of the time...
sometimes I put it there but it has no effect, sometimes it works
I do not think I'm doing anything different
In reply to very cool- maybe by BruceDover
Are you linking the Sustain off event to the right place?
You need to double click the pedal sign and then use Shift + the right arrow key to move that.
There are still problems with this in MuseScore in that you can't follow a Sustain Off event immediately with Sustain On - it just doesn't work!
I am currently trying to get the Development team to correct this, but there are other more important things on their plate right now.
In reply to The voice isn't just a by Marc Sabatella
my experience is that entering multi-voice notes in musescore is not very easy. When writing in musescore, I first enter as much of the music as possible in a single voice and then go back and separate into multiple voices. For the guitar music I work with, most of the voice 2 notes are bass notes that need to be extended while voice 1 melody notes progress. I find it very cumbersome to keep switching back and forth between voices while editing and especially so when voice 2 would enter later in the measure and I typically want to hide the rests; they inevitably end in the same place as the voice 1 notes and are difficult to select.
I would love to see a feature (plug-in or otherwise) that allowed me to select a voice 1 note and say: "delete this note from voice 1 and add it to voice 2, and if this is the first notation in voice 2, then please add the voice 2 rests while you're at it (and pretty please, could these rests be added on lower lines than the voice 1 rests?)"
In reply to my experience is that by mtherieau
Hiding initial rests is typically incorrect; normally they are supposed to be shown. Among other things, that's what shows the reader where the voice enters. In 2.0, though, rests will automatically position themselves better in multiple voice contexts.
If you're clear in your head about how music breaks down into voices, then entering music in multiple voices should take no longer than entering single voies, since it's the exact same process. The thing that normally slows people down is having trouble understanding how their music actually does break down, not the entry itself. But thinking of music in terms of independent voices sharing a staff - in other words, the way music has been notated for the last several hundred years - comes more naturally with practice.
Meanwhile, though, deliberately entering the music incorrectly first - all as one voice - and then trying to correct those errors later is not the way to do it, as you are finding. Entering it correctly from the beginning is absolutely the way to go.
FWIW, you can enter your bass notes first for a whole passage of several measures in one pass, then go back and enter the second voice in another pass,as opposed entering all voices for a given measure before going on. Still, with keyboard shortcuts for switching voices, it's only two extra keystrokes per measure to do it a measure at a time if thatis easier to conceptualize.
In reply to Hiding initial rests is by Marc Sabatella
respectfully disagree that there's a single best "way to go". I also understand that MS supports multiple paths to end up with the same end result. I believe that one of the ways that MS can improve is by embracing, rather than negating differing workflows. After all, we are discussing notation editing software (and my apologies here for drifting off-topic of the original thread) and that software can be adapted to make differing workflows easier to accomplish (and I am reminded of how valuable that is as I currently edit this response for grammar and other typos!)
On the subject of "partial" secondary voices, I am not an expert on music notation, but from my perspective, there are plenty of passages in the guitar music I work with where voice 2 is necessary only to illustrate a slight departure from the main rhythm in voice 1, rather than a fully articulated separate line. For example, if there is just a single bass note that happens to start on beat 3, it's perfectly clear from the note alignment with the notes in voice 1, and if that is the only note in voice 2, then the extra rests are nothing but clutter. For these types of situations, I prefer to hide the voice 2 rests.
In reply to respectfully disagree that by mtherieau
Well of course there's more than one right way music can be entered. I'm simply pointing out that, as you are discovering, deliberately enering notes incorrectly then trying to fix it later isn't very efficient, and it's not very reasonable to expect the program to be redesigned just to better support that type of workflow. The program already supports many different workflows quite well - just not that one, and it's not like anyone has really even prosposed a viable design for how this could work in the general case. Given the issues I've mentioned.
As for thw issue of leading rests, you might want to check out some existing music to see what common practice is. I think you'll find that showing leading rests is common enough that it would tend to be expected by a human reader of your musicin most situation. So if the music is for your own benefit only, by all, do what you want, but if you are producing music for others to read, it helps to actually follow convention. But FWIW, in the relatively uncommon situations where omitting them wold be acceptable, I do agree. Keyboard shortcut to make this easier would be nice.
In reply to Well of course there's more by Marc Sabatella
sorry, I guess this conversation has drifted pretty well afar from the original topic. I'll note that the feedback on entering secondary voice notes does not amount to an expectation that the program be "redesigned" at all. It's just feedback that is valid for _me_ (and maybe for others too) for a part of of MS that, at times, frustrates me. And the one suggestion I did make was a very straightforward extension, not a redesign of any sort.
I do have some other thoughts/suggestions on some relatively straightforward improvements that would make it easier to enter secondary voice notes/rests, but will post those in the Feature Request forum rather than continuing to strangle this thread.
In reply to sorry, I guess this by mtherieau
I appreciate that working with voices can be frustrating at first - and that,s not just an observation about MuseScore, it's an observation about Western music notation in general. But the advice I have given here should eliminate that frustration. It really does work quite simply and well.
Anyhow, please do post threads with suggestions for improvements. But if you check out the other threads on this topic, you'll see some pretty specific reasons why the suggestion you made above simply cannot work the way you describe excpt in very limited cases. Rather than go into that again here, as I said, do start other threads on the topic, but you might want to research some of thw existing threads first to avoid duplication.
In reply to I appreciate that working by Marc Sabatella
I know what you mean, I started using MuseScore yesterday and I was wondering the same. I think the Let Ring feature is plucked strings specific. Guitar pro 5 has that feature, and I opened a tab made there, MuseScore displays the labels Let ring, and most of the music is played correctly (except for harmonics).
Before I discovered that feature in Guitar Pro, I remember using note ties, but Let ring makes things a lot easier.
Oh, I found a solution, use the piano dynamic "Pedal", works the same.
View -> Palettes -> Lines -> Ped ____|