Putting a tie on a grace note?
Anyone know how to tie a grace note, as you would find on the last page of this:
http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/8/8f/IMSLP57339-PMLP02518-Grieg…
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Generally speaking, grace notes would not be tied, but slurred - totally different things, even though the actual symbol is similar. You enter slurs for grace notes the same as other slurs - click the first note, press "S" (or use the Lines palette). Even in the rare cases where a tie might be intended, I'd just use the slur symbol.
In reply to Generally speaking, grace by Marc Sabatella
For this example, couldn't you change the actual time sig to 12/8 for the measure, place real quarter notes and the final whole notes, tie them the way you need, and make the quarters small?
EDIT: Yes, I could do it. After much futsing about with slurs (instead of ties), hiding rests, inverting notes, hiding notes and stems, changing note sizes to small, very finicky. It will still give the same result in printout as the original page.
Note, I could not do this in the latest 2.0 nightly. If I set the measure as 12/8, I can still only enter 4 notes in the measure.
In reply to For this example, couldn't by schepers
Ah, is *that* the measure you are talking about? Those aren't really grace notes, but rather, an indication of an arpeggio. If you browse around, you'll see a few other threads discussing solutions to the problem of creating these sorts of figures. Sometimes, the subject came up in conjunction with ties into second endings, or ties out of first endings - the idea that you are trying to tie to something other than the next actual note.
In reply to Ah, is *that* the measure you by Marc Sabatella
Well, that's the measure _I_ assumed it was. I didn't notice the two small tied grace note examples, which I finally noticed on the third look-over. I figured the final bar would be the worst example to work from.
In reply to For this example, couldn't by schepers
Did you mean 12/4?
There are 12 crotchets in this bar.
Maybe that's why 2.0 coughed at it?
In reply to Did you mean 12/4? There are by ChurchOrganist
Yes, I meant 12/4. I will check this problem in the latest trunk and post an issue if it still doesn't work.
That's the measure I was talking about, yes. I'm not looking to do exactly that but something very similar, a rolled arp that's held. I'd call it a tie personally, but using the slurs and magnifying the page to a billion percent so I could move them around did result in the look I was after. :-) Thanks!
In reply to That's the measure I was by fireandair
Btw, I tried to do this using gracenotes and the result was about the same as the approach of setting the actual time signature to 12/4 and entering regular notes. But I had to do a lot of moving the grae notes around (double click to go to edit mode, arrow to move). I also had to add more leading space to the main note via Note Properties to make room for all those grace notes. Definitely more work than the 12/4 solution, but the grae note method has the advantage of coming close to the desired playback effect.
But really, if you're not married to notating it the way it is shown here, really, you're b,ich better off kust using the standard arpeggio symbol. Two clicks and you're done. The only time you'd normally need to write out the individual notes of the apreggio separately from the chord would be if you needed to notate a specific rhtyhm, in which case, you'd just notate the rhythm normally, then add the slurs to simulate ties.
In reply to Btw, I tried to do this using by Marc Sabatella
Thanks. I have used the arp symbol in this, but it comes across as more chordal than I'd like ... I suppose it's all just down to individual idiolects of notation.
In reply to Thanks. I have used the arp by fireandair
Perhaps, but you should also consider the fact that some day, someone else might end up reading your music, and it is to your advantage to go with the standard notation to make this as easy as possible for the reader. As someone who is often put in the position of needing to sightread other people's charts, non-standard notation practices are a huge no-no. I would again say that if you have a specific rhythm you want to hear, just write it out, but if not, the standard arpeggio notation is the far more efficient and standard way to convey that. If you are concerned they might play it too fast, then write "slow arpeggio" below. Anyhow, that's just my advice as someone who is far too often asked to read music that could have been written much more clearly.
In reply to Perhaps, but you should also by Marc Sabatella
Marc.
Again it seems to come down between Notation for others to read and interpret, and "sequencer" functions.
In reply to Perhaps, but you should also by Marc Sabatella
I'm no pianist, but I perceive that Grieg's intention here was for a slow arpeggiation of the chord, beginning with an additional G de profundo.
Hence the non-stamdard arpeggio direction?
In reply to I'm no pianist, but I by ChurchOrganist
For the record, I amnot saying that the notation in question is so non-standard that it absolutley should be avoided. I was responding more to the general notion of going out of one's way to create non-standard notations just because you, the composer/arranger, prefer them. Sometimes there may really be something to be gained, and it's worth the trouble and potential confusion, but all too often I see people just going with their own idiosyncratic approaches when there is no reason to.
So while the notation pictured here isn't hugely problematic, I also don't think there is any advantage to it. As I said, if you want a slow arpeggio, the simple phrase "slow arpeggio" communicates that at least as clearly, plus it takes less space on the page and less effort to notate. But if you don't mind the extra work and the extra space taken on the page, I wouldn't say this particular notation in this particular case is bad in itself.
In reply to Perhaps, but you should also by Marc Sabatella
I started training as a pianist when I was ten -- I know standard notation and what I want to do with this notation, and I know what other composers have done. This is a notation of operatic recitatif, which I want to maintain as somewhat freer rhythmically, so that others don't feel obligated to do it precisely the same way I did it. Nevertheless, I do want an effect similar to what I've seen elsewhere in sheet music that does use what I've done here.
I'm not looking to reproduce what Grieg has done note for note. All I was looking for is how to make a tie off of a grace note, not how to reproduce this segment of this piece.