As requested by Thomas Bonte
Hi, guess this is my first post. I'm a moderator on a sax forum (cafesaxophone.com/forum.php), and I posted a comment that the latest release of Musescore was a little buggy, suggesting they held off upgrading.
Thomas picked up on this and asked for my feedback, then asked me to post it here.
Hope it's in the right place. Apologies if not. Apologies if I'm duplicating other bug reports, but I don't have time to go through checking othe reports at the moment.
Kev
Sorry Thomas, have been really busy.
I'm a big fan of Musescore. and it's been good to watch it grow.
Problems (some were present in the previous version, but have been carried over). I can't really say what's new/old. Except that selection appears to be worse in 1.2. Probably more, but these should keep you going for a while. Hope they're not all known problems... :
1 Inappropriate auto transpose for new score
1.1 e.g. Create score for tenor sax only (single instrument). Select key sig, number of bars etc. and finish. When you get to bare sheet music, this has been autotransposed, assuming the original key selected was in concert pitch. Adding a tick box for concert pitch when selecting the key sig. would allow us to circumvent this when we're writing a score for a single instrument and an autotranspose is not needed. Tick box could default to 'off' for single instrument and 'on' for multi instrument scores.
2 Playback
2.1 seems to start where it feels like in the score. Should always start from the currently selected note/rest.
Would also be great to be able to start from a within a repeat, instead of always at the first play
would also be great to be able to select a few bars with the mouse and just play those bars.
3 Repeat
3.1 No way to suppress a repeat within a DS.
The voltas never line up with bar lines, but need manual adjustment.
Different voltas appear at different heights above the stave.
Voltas run into other symbols above the stave (general probelm with all symbols above the stave, including bar numbers, practice marks).
4 Note input mode/mouse
4.1 Really painful. Could profitably be done away with as it doesn't really add anything. The note following the mouse pointer around is really annoying. I've found the best way of inputting notes is to use the note values and pitch, surely this doesn't require a mode switch. These actions can be suppressed automatically in text input. Auto switch into note input can really mess you around because it changes the actions of the keys, and if you weren't expecting/intending it....
5 Insert missing notes
5.1 If one's typing in a piece of music and for some reason one misses a note, it's impossible to insert a note (e.g. instead of typing ded, I type dd. Can't go back and put the E in, need to retype. This is a real issue if you type a few bars, then proof read and find the missing note(s) later.
6 Note selection e.g. for copy/paste.
6.1 Musescore often fails to select the note(s) first time
If complex area, often impossible to select notes, often selects sharp sign/flat or something else
Selecting a note and trying to move the mouse to select more notes often moves the note up or down the stave, even when the pointer is nowhere near the note.
Sequence of empty bars. Click on first, it's selected. Shift click on a later bar to select a series of bars and the original bar is deselected, instead of selecting all bars in between and the final clicked bar.
7 Multi Bar rests
7.1 Assume single part is the score. And the score starts with a few bars rest for this instrument. Put a signe in bar 3. Put a DS later in the score. Turn on multi-bar rests. If either/both are in a sequence of rests, they're hidden.
Same goes for other repeats using repeat bar lines instead of DS. These are hidden either partially or completely. Doesn't appear to affect playback, just display on screen.
Also affects display of bars where time signature occurs and bar is a rest if these are within repeats. (which makes counting the bars you sit out very difficult).
8 Moving notes
8.1 on at least one occasion I noticed a group of notes move on the stave after musescore had broken a stave over two lines. Conceivably a result of 6.3 above, but I don't think so.
9 Fermattas
9.1 Can't put fermatta on a rest with drag and drop. Rest goes red, but fermatta doesn't appear on the score.
If rest selected and then fermatta symbol double clicked, it will go to the rest, but not properly aligned over full bar rest.
10 Score display
10.1 Last line of page never appears on the screen. Need an option to put the whole page on the screen, many of us have big screens...
11 Triplets
11.1 It's often not clear on screen how a triplet will be created. (i.e. from which note/rest). So the triplet appears on the wrong note/rest. May be a dumb user thing, but it's often painfully wrong.
Trying to overtype triplets often ends up with the triplet and it's notes remaining in the bar, but hidden – until the piece is replayed.
Comments
I'm sure the effort that went into this list will be appreciated! However, I think several of the specifica are simply the result of misunderstandings, not bugs, and in any event, almost *none* of this represents a case of things getting worse between 1.1 and 1.2, so it certainly shouldn't reason not to upgrade. On the contrary, quite a number of things got better between 1.1 and 1.2 even in the specifc areas you are talking about., so really, if these are important areas to you, it is definitely worth upgrading. Especially since it costs nothing. Nothing on this list worse, quite a few things got better.
1. Nothing has changed in transposition between 1.1 and 1.2 that I am aware of, so this doesn't constitute a reason not to upgrade. Also, I don't understand how ricking a checkbox while still in the score creation wizard is easier than just clicking the Concert Pitch button after score creation. Same exact number of clicks to get the same exact result, unless I am misunderstanding something.
2. It *does* start from the currently selected note. There were bugs in 1.1 where in certain cases - scores with repeats, with playback of repeats turned on, and a recent edit had been made - that play back would start in the wrong spot, but this has gotten better, not worse, between 1.1 and 1.2.
3. Again, none of this has gotten worse since 1.1, so not a reason to avoid upgrading. But I definitely agree that there is room for improvement here. 2.0 will at least allow voltas to default to reasonable positions, so that's something to look forward to. as for playback, do keep in mind that the primary purpose of MuseScore is notation, so playback features not directly tied to notation features tend to be lower priority.
4. I toally agree the disembodied notehead that follows the cursor note entry mode is not helpful except to those people who use the mouse for note entry rather than either of the more efficient methods, so I wish it could be turned off. but again, not something that got worse, so not a reason to avoid upgrading, and definitely not a bug.
5. You don't have to retype - you simply move the notes you wish moved *manually*' via copy/paste. See any number of existing theas discussing ways an insert mode could be added someday, and I do hope to see it happen someday, but once you get used to how it currently works - which is identical how the single most popular notation proram in the world (Sibelius) has long done it - it is actually pretty efficient as is. Once again, definitely not something that has chaned, so not a reason to avoid upgrading?
6. Again, not something that has changed, so not a reason to avoid upgrading. Zooming in does help make selection easier. And click then Shift-click to select a region defintely *does* work; not sure what you are doing that makes you believe otherwise.
7. Sounds like that's probably a bug, although not likely a new one, so again, not a reason to upgrade. But FWIW, you can force a measure to break multimeasure rests manually, via right click and the Measure Properties window. So just turn that option on for any measures that you want to see break the rest. Adding a DS or similar marking should probably set that option automatically; that's the part I'd call a bug. But easy enough to work around.
8. I can't tell what you are talking about here. It's certainly possible some sort of bug exists somewhere, but without a more specific example, it's going to be hard to track down. in any case, almost no chance anything got worse here, and on the contrary, a number of bugs were fixed in this area. So it's that much reason to upgrade, not to avoid upgrading!
9. Again, not different from 1.1, so not a reason to avoid upgrading. I do believe there is an existing enhancement request to allow drag and drop, but souble clicking is far easier. If you don't like the default position of the fermata, you can certainly move it, but I agree default position of articulations could be improved, and not just in this cas. i do believe 2.0 may already contain improvements in this area.
10. What do you mean? Are you just saying the default zoom setting and the page size you choose to work with happens to be such that when you first load a score the last line of the page is not on the screen? You can certainly change the zoom level if you would rather see your music small enough to fit on screen; a single click accomplishes that. Personally I don't care about the "page" when I first start a score; I care about the notes. So I'd rather the default zoom forcus on readability than on arbitrarily fitting a page on screen. i suppose as a feature request, being able to set the initial zoom the way you like might be nice. But again, not something that has changed, ao not a eason to avoid upgrading.
11. More details would help. Triplet creation should be quite simple - you type a duration, hit ctrl-3, and the time position where the cursor is is filled with the approriate triplet. I've never encountered a case where it didn't work that way, but it's possible there is some sort of obscure corner case you have run into. In any case, not something that changed, so not a reason to avoid upgading, and indeed, some of the most important bug fixes between 1.1 and 1.2 were in the area of triplets, to the point where I'd say if you use triplets much, you can't afford *not* to upgrade!
None of this "issues" are new to MuseScore 1.2 so there is no reason to downgrade or don't install MuseScore 1.2 since there are numerous improvements and so far no regression has been reported.
Another note, it's better to give feedback one point at a time in different posts. This post might generate a lot of feedback as there are a lot of topics in it.
1 Inappropriate auto transpose for new score
This is a feature and it was the same in MuseScore 1.1. The key signature you choose in the new score wizard is the concert pitch key signature. I'm not a "transpose instrument" player so I never thought it was a problem. The idea of having the concert pitch switch expose here is not bad, but it's the very first time I see it mentioned on the forum. Any other sax player have an opinion about that?
2 Playback
Playback should start where the cursor is. If not, it's a bug and it should be file. There were problems with repeat and start position but they should be fixed in 1.2 and work better than in 1.1.
3 Repeat
MuseScore never play repeats in DS and has never do so. You can move lines to align them, just click and drag. Auto alignment of the lines was beyond the scope of 1.2 but will be in 2.0.
4 Note input
I guess one needs to be get used to it... but any constructive remark is welcome.
5 Insert missing notes
Use copy paste to move notes before inserting.
6 Note selection e.g. for copy/paste.
To select a passage, click on a note (if notes are too small, use Ctrl + Scroll to zoom) and shift click on the last one. With a normal mouse, it's pretty easy. You can also use shift + arrows to select.
I can't reproduce the behavior with empty bars, it behaves as expected. The first measure remains selected.
7 Multi Bar rests
Indeed segno and DS don't break multi measure rests but you can enforce that with a right click on the measure after the text -> Measure properties -> break multi measure rests. Regarding repeat barlines, I can't reproduce.
8 Moving notes
We need a file or a test case to reproduce this and fix it.
9 Fermatas
Indeed. This is fixed for 2.0.
10 Score display
I'm not sure I get this one. An option to display the full height is available in the Zoom combo. You can zoom in and out with Ctrl + mouse scroll or Ctrl + +/-
11 Triplets
In MuseScore 1.2 (and before), if you are in note entry mode the tuplet is created after the cursor and with the current duration. If you are out of input mode the selected note will be used.
In reply to None of this "issues" are new by [DELETED] 5
Thanks for taking the time to reply. Sadly I'm really disappointed by the replies. If you guys are just going to argue instead of listening, you'll never get your product up to a professional level.
Frankly Musescore is well below where it should be in terms of usability and bug control. It's difficult to use unless you've spent a long time working with it. And it does dumb things that make life a lot harder. You can't use it without the manual, and even then there are often times that it doesn't help.
I've done my best to help out. Seems like you want to remain at a second rate level.
If what I'm saying is nothing new, then fix it, don't deny the problem's there or try to justify nonsense.
It's why Apple and the iPhone have done so well. And it's why Nokia threw their market away.
In reply to Thanks for taking the time to by kevgermany
Hey Kev, if we look back to the state of MuseScore 1-2 years ago, I'm a strong believer things will improve in the future and specifically with MuseScore 2.0. We are not here to keep the status quo. And your feedback will help us to make this happen. Thanks again for taking the time to write it up.
Regarding the comments from marc and lasconic, they mainly gave their feedback on "suggesting they held off upgrading". I think based on their comments it's fair to say that there is no reason to hold off to upgrade. But obviously, as you indicated many issues in 1.x are still unresolved. In order to get those fixed, a major refactoring was necessary and this is what happened now for the upcoming 2.0. So we are focused now to fix many of the things you addressed in 2.0.
If you want to learn where MuseScore is going to, you can check out the nightly builds. Feedback on UI & UX is very welcome. Perhaps one topic at the time.
In reply to Thanks for taking the time to by kevgermany
You got detailed and valid replies to all your points, what more do you need to not be disappointed?
How else but by listening to what you said do you think these replies came about?
I don't see anyone arguing (in the English sense of having a verbal fight, rather than the German of exchanging opinions).
But I certainly agree that there is room for improvement and yes, there are still bugs, nobody denies this and nobody tries to justfy nonsense (and claiming otherwise looks like an attempt to start an argument).
In reply to Thanks for taking the time to by kevgermany
Sorry if our replies came off as argumentative. But I really do hope you will read them point by point and not just give up. You listed a lot of things as bugs that are *not* bugs, but simple misunderstandings on your part as to how things work. Yes, you sometimes need to consult the documentation, or ask for help here in the forum - in irder to learn how some things work. That is true of any sufficnelty powerful program, including every other notation program out there, and hardly makes MuseScore "second rate". Certainly, one would not expect to do any better on one's first tryi with Finale or Sibelius without consulting the documentation, either - quite the contrary, actually.
Tthe things you listed that were legitimate enhancement requests were noted as such by me; I agree with several of them. Most had already been logged and will hopefully be addressed at some point. If you spend more tham a few minutes here, you'll find there is nothing "second rate" about this project. The developers are constantly improving things and at an amazing rate compared to the glacial pace of most software development.
If you have other specific examples of "dumb things that make life harder", feel free to post about them - ideally in separate threads. Again, I suspect some will out to be simple misunderstandings, others legitimate enhancement requests that could improve the product. So as a fellow user, I do welcome that kind of feedback. But just complaining, without providing examples or being willing to listen to people when they try to explain how things work, doesn't really help.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is that if your users do not upgrade to version 1.2 they may find their scores do not load into version 2.0 properly.
The file format has changed for 2.0 and code to make your original files 2.0 compatible is contained within version 1.2.
Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, but I have been using MuseScore pretty well daily in my working life as a professional musician since May 2011, and IMO 1.2 is a vast improvement on 1.1 with many of my niggles addressed.
That said there are still many areas which need addressing, too numerous to start listing here, but if you visit the issue tracker pages you will get some idea.
Please don't take offence - your input is valuable, but bear in mind that being Open Source, MuseScore's direction is derived from the input of people with many different opinions on how the UI should evolve, and the active MuseScore community engages in debate, sometimes quite vigorously, on the directions it should be taking.
It's up to you whether you still wish to engage in this debate, but remember your input is always valued, even if it is disagreed with.
Regards
Michael - Director of Music, St Michael's Church, Retford