Request for help using a Treble Clef template.
I am using a template, acquired some time ago through this forum, which displays the Baritone and Bass lines in Treble clef. It works beautifully, but I would like to modify it in one respect:
When MuseScore is in Concert Pitch Mode and say "A" is displayed in the second space of the Treble Stave, is it possible to change a setting somewhere, so that the note audibly sounds an octave lower like a Baritone (and two octaves for the Bass) without changing the display on the stave. (At present, I transpose down one (or two) perfect octaves to hear the effect, but this changes the display and is a nuisance.)
This is a feature of Sibelius and I hope it is possible with MuseScore.
Comments
Right click the staff -> staff properties -> transposition
Most template are set up to do this transposition automatically - if yours isn't, you might consider loading a blank score, making that change, then deleting all measures and re-saving the template.
In reply to Most template are set up to by Marc Sabatella
Thank you Marc and Lasconic for responding to my query. I understand what you are saying, but getting MuseScore to transpose instruments from a common key to an appropriate playing key for each instrument is not the problem.
Recently, I downloaded a copy of the Sibelius 6 demo pack. When I call up the Brass Band template, all the instruments staves are displayed in Treble Clef (with the exception of the Bass Trombone), which is what is required by the players in the brass bands that I belong to, and all the instruments are displayed with the same key signature, which is what I want to use to arrange music before transposition to appropriate playing keys.
When I enter a note, say “A”, in the second space of the Treble Clef stave for the Cornet and test the note, the audible playback is “A” as a cornet should sound. So far so good, Sibelius and MuseScore do the same thing.
Now, if I enter “A” in the second space of the Treble Clef stave for the Baritone Horn and test the note, Sibelius returns an audible “A” one octave down, which is how a Baritone Horn actually sounds, and for a Bass Tuba, “A” in the second space of the Treble Clef stave returns an audible “A” two octaves down, which is how a Bass tuba actually sounds.
Not having $600 to spend, that is what I would like MuseScore to do. With the MuseScore template I am using, which came from https://sites.google.com/site/freemusicforkids/free-tools , Cornet, Baritone and Bass Tuba all sound like a Cornet when I test an “A” in the second space of their Treble Clef staves, which is not helpful when I want to test a block chord.
At the moment, the best I can do in order to get a realistic sound test is to toggle the transpose feature down a perfect octave (or two), which creates so many ledger lines it all becomes too hard. (I just feel as though I need to reset an instrument clock somewhere and all will be well.)
Once again, thank you for responding to my query. Even if I can’t get what I want, it has been helpful to be able to express the problem to someone else.
Ned Kelly
In reply to Thank you Marc and Lasconic by Ned Kelly
It's definitely just a transposition issue - the template got the key right but the octave wrong. Simply enough to fix. Although I'm not seeing quite the same thing what you're seeing.
I just downloaded that template, made sure Concert Pitch was turned off, added a note to the 1st Baritone part, and it definitely sounded an octave and a step lower just as it should. The other low brass instruments also came out sounding lower just as they should - except the Trombones. They are sounding at the same pitch as entere,d which I'm guessing is wrong. You'd have to right click the staff, hit Staff Properties, and change "+octave" to 1.
Since you say none of the instrument were transposing, I'm now guessing you simply were entering notes in Concert Pitch mode? If you wish to enter notes at written (as opposed to sounding) pitch, you have to have Concert Pitch turned off, using the button at top left.
If you're still having problems, perhaps try posting an actual score and steps to reproduce. But it really does work if the template is set up correctly, and this one does seem correct except for trombones.
In reply to It's definitely just a by Marc Sabatella
Hi Marc, good to hear from you.
I wonder if you would just bear with me a little longer on this question. Could we try a little experiment? Could you please download the Sibelius 6 Demo Pack if you don’t already have it.
Now select:
start a new score/brass band/unchanged/44/F major(b)/Title/Finish
Am I correct in understanding that the display opens in Concert Pitch - that is, all staves display 1 flat?
Now enter an ‘A’ into the second space of the Treble clefs for:
Solo Cornet
Solo Horn
1st Baritone
Bb Bass
Now test each note. When I do this, I hear each instrument as it normally sounds – high, medium and low.
If I try to do exactly the same thing with MuseScore in Concert Pitch Mode, all the notes sound the same – like a cornet. What I am hoping to achieve is to find a way to get MuseScore to do the same as Sibelius when in Concert Pitch Mode.
Returning to Sibelius, select:
Notes/Transposing score
The key signatures now appear transposed as they should for each instrument and all the notes are correctly positioned.
Is there an interesting question here or am I missing something?
Regards,
Ned Kelly
In reply to Hi Marc, good to hear from by Ned Kelly
I don't know that the Sibelius 6 demo is still available, but looking at Sibelius 7, I *think* I see what you are seeing, but it's extremely unfamiliar to me so I can't be sure. When I first open a score, I see different key signatures, showing me everything is being fully transposed. But it looks like if I have "Transposing Score" turned *off*, I see everything in the same key, but notes are still octave transposed. So entering a second space A always produces an "A", but in different octaves for the different instruments. Yes?
I'm not sure I understand the point of this. Why not enter notes at the actual pitches you want them to actually to sound, instead of having to enter notes an octave higher than you want? I guess maybe so they all fit on the treble clef staff?
The way one would usually work in MuseScore when dealing with instruments that transpose an octave or more is to use a different clef when entering the music in concert pitch, then change the clefs when switching to concert pitch before printing parts. So, for instance, using the treble-8 clef while in Concert Pitch mode would give you the same behavior you see in Sibelius - entering a second space A will still sound like an A, but an octave lower.
In 1.X, you have to change the clefs manually when turning Concert Pitch off, but I know for 2.0 there was talk of supporting the notion of a separate concert pitch clef, so you can set it to be treble-8 (or bass, or whatever you want). I thought I had remembered seeing this already, but now I don't.
But assuming that feature makes it in 2.0 (it's one I'd very much like to see), that should answer your question, I think.
In reply to I don't know that the by Marc Sabatella
Hi Marc,
Yes, your description of the behaviour of Sibelius 7 matches what I have experienced with the Sibelius 6 demo pack: entering a second space “A” always produces an “A”, but in different octaves for the different instruments. Yes.
And “yes” again for your second paragraph. With the exception of the bass trombone player, our brass players want everything to fit on the Treble Clef staff, so I find it easier to work with the Treble Clef from the word go.
Your third paragraph gave me one of those enchanting “aha” moments that one experiences from time to time when a fog suddenly lifts. I have seen that Treble-8 clef symbol, but I have not known what to do with it. My whole musical experience until recently has been with piano and organ music, and all I have ever needed is the normal Bass and Treble Clefs. When I turned 70 a couple of years ago, I decided to try something different, so I took up the baritone horn and joined a couple of brass bands. It has been a steep learning curve, never more so than when I discovered MuseScore and thought I might have a go at arranging music for one of the bands. It is rather fun to arrange a piece and then listen to a full brass band playing it. My efforts so far have been pretty primitive, but they humour me. As I have become more ambitious, I have felt a need to adapt MuseScore a bit, hence these enquiries.
The Treble-8 feature meets that need for all except the Bb Tuba. I think I would need a Treble-88 for that. But no matter, I can work around that.
Thank you very much for your patience and expertise. Go well.
Regards,
Ned Kelly
In reply to Hi Marc, Yes, your by Ned Kelly
You're welcome! Sibelius treats the treble-8 clefs differently than MuseScore, and that might also be why they haven't "clicked" for you before - they don't actually do anything in Sibelius.
Yes, indeed, very low brass instruments like tuba are the main cases that couldn't be handled this way; you'll have to use bass clef. There is actually a treble clef with a 15 *above* that transposes two octaves, but in the wrong direction for your usage. Adding a treble clef that transposed two octave the way you want seems like a nice idea for an enhancement.