Key signature change problems
When, after an end bar, I change from A major (3 sharps) to G major (one sharp), the key signature is shown with two accidentals where the C sharp and G sharp used to be. Then in the following measures, sharps appear on the G and C notes.
1. How do I get rid of those accidentals in the key signature?
2. How do I get it to stop putting sharps where they are no longer supposed to be?
I've searched the FAQs and forum, but I don't see an answer to this problem.
Thanks.
Comments
1. Going from A major to G major, the two naturals you see in the new key signature, by convention, nullify two of the sharps in the previous key.
It's a friendly reminder to the performer as to where he's coming from and where he's going to 'harmonically' (i.e. diatonically).
Optionally, you can right click on the key signature showing the naturals and then select 'Hide naturals' in the pop up menu.
2. Musescore is not really 'putting sharps where they are no longer supposed to be'. Presumably, if the melody was playable, the sharps were already there, because the notes had already been entered in the key of A. Changing the key signature will not 'transpose' the song into the key of G major. The fact that you see the sharps simply shows that the piece was actually 'written in the key of A'. Musescore *cannot* change the actual 'melody' (which you hum) and make it sound like a different song.
See: http://musescore.org/en/handbook/transposition
However:
Musescore *can* change the 'pitch' of the melody by transposing into a higher or lower register (key). The fundamental relationships (intervals) between the notes remain the same.
To continue:
Here's a good example of a song actually 'composed in the key of F', but the score's author has it being performed in C (or vice versa - I can never figure this out):
http://www.wikifonia.org/node/3149#/C/0/1
Notice that all the 'B' notes are flatted with an accidental. Were you to copy this into Musescore and simply change the key signature to F major (one flat), the accidentals on all the 'B' notes would vanish. The melody would remain intact.
The reason for key signatures is to minimize the writing of accidentals for scale degrees, not to add to the complexity.
Regards...
In reply to Welcome aboard... by Jm6stringer
First off, I've been singing opera for two decades and have never seen these "friendly reminder" accidentals in a key signature. When the signature changes, it changes, and the performer is supposed to notice that.
Second, I'm copying a Verdi opera score in order to assist me in learning my part. So the melody is certainly "playable".
Third, the program is definitely showing sharps where it should not. I'm attaching a screen shot so you can see what I'm talking about.
I was able to hide the naturals by following your advice, but the sharps are still there.
In reply to Your comments by dcummins
...those naturals are a 'friendly' reminder to the performer.
1. You can choose or not choose to use them; and (like me) they've been around for a long time. In Musescore, the option to hide them is actually a recent innovation. See:
http://musescore.org/en/node/7524
I'm sure you *have seen* something similar - like, for instance, when a key signature with sharps or flats, changes to C major - naturals are absolutely necessary to be notated in the signature for this instance.
Anyway, as you said, you were able to hide the naturals...
To continue...
2. If the melody is playable in Musescore, *and* sounds correct, there is no need to change a note by, for instance, eliminating a sharp - which will lower the note's pitch and change the melody. Does the score's playback as written sound correct? All the *right* notes?
3. Regarding "the program is definitely showing sharps where it should not":
Looking at your screen shot (the .mscz score file would certainly be better), raises the following question:
Do the G#'s and C#'s sound correct? If they do, to what do you wish to change them?
If they don't, then how did they get entered incorrectly in the first place? If you entered 'G's and 'C's while in the key of A, and maybe forgot to put the change to key of G until all the notes were entered, then of course changing from key of A to key of G would put sharps in. Because that's what was entered. Of course, this is only a guess as to why the sharps appear.
Regards...
In reply to Like I said... by Jm6stringer
I'm sorry but your comment doesn't make any sense. Do the sharps "sound correct"? I am entering the score as Verdi wrote it. When the key signature changes to G from A major, a G is a G natural, not a G sharp and the C is a C natural, not a C-sharp. The program puts sharps where there should be none.
The only way I can get rid of those sharps is to manually change each and every one. When I change the first G sharp to G natural in a measure, then the program changes the next G in the measure to a G sharp. So this is rough going--changing every single G and C note in every measure from sharp to natural.
The question is why the program is not recognizing the key signature change.
In reply to sound correct??? by dcummins
Wrong. In G Major (1 #) a G is a G and a C is a C (unless prefixed by a # or a b), in A Major (3 #) it is a G# resp. a C#, (unless prefixed by a natural or a b)
And MuseScore does exactly that.
In reply to sound correct??? by dcummins
I'm kind-a guessing here, but it looks like you wrote everything in A (3 sharps), and then just dropped a G keysig at bar 43. This method will leave all the accidentals that existed in A major. If indeed this is what happened, you probably wanted to _transpose_ the section instead, and there is a menu option for that, but be sure to select only the measures you want to transpose first.
In reply to sound correct??? by dcummins
See my previous post. It seems you entered the notes before you entered the key change, and that is the source of your problem. By typing "G" while the key signature was still three sharps, you were telling MuseScore you wanted G#'s. MuseScore is simply trying to do what you told it. When you change key signatures, MuseScore does *not* change notes you already entered. If you entered a G# - and as far as anyone can tell, that's exactly wehat you did - it's going to stay a G#. You made a mistake by entering notes into the wrong key signature, so now you need the fix the mistake. Next time, be sure to get the key signature right before entering notes.
In reply to See my previous post. It by Marc Sabatella
Mark, your whole approach to this question seems to have been to scold the user for ignorance and stupidity, and to defend the program. I didn't need a lecture on baby music theory, nor did I need to have accidentals and key signatures explained to me.
All I needed was advice on how to fix a problem. As far as I remember, I changed the key signature before entering the notes as I did for the next 5 pages of music, which contain several key and time signature changes per page.
A simple and respectful piece of advice such as the following would have been appropriate, respectful, as well as helpful: "The program will do that if you change the key signature AFTER you enter the notes; if you did that, you'll need to change the sharps by hand".
Some people use forums to pontificate, brag, and put other people down. Others use it to actually provide useful advice. Unfortunately, you seem to fall in the former category.
In reply to scolding not necessary by dcummins
I'm pretty confident that you either remember wrongly and really changed the key sig after having entered the notes or you copied them from one key sig a pasted them into another. These are the only methods I can think of to bring you into the situation you're in.
Also you've been asked several times to show your score, not just a picture of it, so we're left guessing what the issue might be....
In reply to scolding not necessary by dcummins
I'm not trying to scold you. It's just that the behavior had been explained several times and you seemed to not be getting it, so clearly something was not clicking. I tried to step back and explain clearly from the beginning in a way that would hopefully clear up any misconceptions. That included explicitly saying that we are having to *assume* you entered the notes first before changing the key signature, because that's really the only explanation for what you are seeing. It's perfectly normal for people to makes mistakes, so you shouldn't take offense if I point out that you made one here. It's just that up until that point, you seemed to not be understanding that you had in fact made a mistake - you seemed to be assumign the program was doing something wrong. I don't know any way to clarify that except directly. Sorry if that offended you somehow.
In reply to I'm not trying to scold you. by Marc Sabatella
Marc, what I've put together while reading through the lines of the lectures etc that were posted here in response to my question is that if a key change is made after the notes are entered, the program tries to preserve the intervals on the assumption that you are simply trying to transpose the music to another key. That's a nice feature, but it should be possible to toggle it off in the case the user is doing something else, namely, copying a score, with the possibility of errors that may need to be corrected later.
With respect to the key signature change problems, I've sorted out that mystery. I asked someone to proof read what I'd copied, and to make necessary corrections. I've asked her and she said that she did put in a key signature change that was omitted. So that solves that mystery.
So how could this problem have been addressed? By having someone simply say this: If you change the key signature after you've already typed in notes, the program assumes you are trying to transpose and will modify the notes to preserve the intervals/chords. There is no way to toggle this feature off, so once that happens, your only recourse is to manually correct all of the sharps/flats/naturals that the program automatically added.
Unless there IS a way to toggle this off. If there is, that would have been a useful thing to be told as well.
In reply to thanks for the apology by dcummins
Check http://musescore.org/en/node/11708
In reply to scolding not necessary by dcummins
I have the same problem :(
(And I'm pretty sure too that I've changed key signature BEFORE entering notes)
Did you find a way to fix it automatically and not by hand?
In reply to I have the same problem :( by Alejandralumiere
In order to understand what is going on, we would need you to attach the score you are having problems with and to describe more precisely what you are trying to do. Also, it's better to start a new thread rather than resurrect one from four years ago :-)
In reply to Your comments by dcummins
Right - it would be impossible to notate a change to C major or A minor without the use of naturals. So use of naturals for this purpose is absolutely universal. For other cases, it is pretty common, but by no means universal. I suspect if you've been singing professionally, you've seen it and just never noticed. But in any case, as mentioned, you can disable it.
As for the accidentals, I think you're misunderstanding, but it's hard to tell from just a picture of a score. Better to post the score itself and then the steps you are following. My guess is that you entered the notes first before changing the key signature. Which is to say, you entered the G's while the key signature still had three sharps, meaning you really entered G#'s. Merely changing the key signature to something with only 1 sharp doesn't tell MuseScore to change the notes you entered. You entered G#'s, and MuseScore is trying to honor that. I suppose there could be command to change key signature and alter notes at the same time, but as far as I know, there isn't. You'll probably have to fix these notes by hand - simply lower them to G using the arrow key. And next time, know not to do this - get the key signature right *before* entering notes, or you will find you'll entered a bunch of wrong notes, as you did here when you entered G#'s that should have been G's all along.
In reply to Right - it would be by Marc Sabatella
Mark, I'm holding the score in front of me. The key signatures change frequently throughout the score (as do the time signatures), and the naturals do not appear in the key signatures ON EVERY SINGLE MEASURE FOLLOWING THE CHANGE. Sometimes the key and time signatures change 2-3 times on a single page.
I'm attaching a screen shot of the music as it should have appeared when I changed the key signature from A major to G major. I had to correct every single G and C in the following several measures manually to get rid of the sharps. And every time I changed the first G sharp to G natural the program inserted a sharp after the next G. I had to correct every single one by hand.
As far as I remember, I changed the key signature before entering the notes, so I'm not sure why it did not recognize the change.
In reply to impossible? by dcummins
QUOTE: Mark, I'm holding the score in front of me. The key signatures change frequently throughout the score (as do the time signatures), and the naturals do not appear in the key signatures ON EVERY SINGLE MEASURE FOLLOWING THE CHANGE.
(Don't understand what the bit in capitals is supposed to mean. Key signatures do not normally appear on every bar [measure], do they?)
Right, we understand you have the vocal score (I presume?) of a Verdi opera. There are lots of variations in typesetting, but I grabbed the first Verdi score I could find: Traviata act I, original Ricordi ed. I think, and the first key change is on p. 20, from three sharps to two flats. The key signature (beginning of the Brindisi) has three naturals and two flats. Is this what you are claiming never to have seen?
Next the business of your subsequent accidentals. If you were a typesetter for Ricordi a century or so ago, you were basically creating a set of marks on a piece of paper. So if you put a blob on the second line of the treble clef, that's what it was, and its meaning would depend on whether the current key signature made it into a G#, Gb, or whatever. But in Musescore, you are *not* creating a set of marks on paper. (It might be easy to miss this point for a long time.) You are entering *notes*. There are two possible ways in which you could end up with sharps you had not intended.
(1) You forgot to change the key signature, and you thought that, like the Ricordi employee of yesteryear you were putting a blob on the second line of the treble clef. But you were not! You were entering a note, a G# to be specific. Of course when you later changed the key signature, this made no difference to the entered note, a G#, but it did make a difference to the blob on the second line, which gained an accidental.
(2) Visiting aliens entered your study while you were asleep, and put the accidentals there. Or the NSA has hacked the gcc compiler so it does things differently. Or something similar.
But the real mystery is how you got the three B-flats in a row...?
Brian Chandler
In reply to QUOTE: Mark, I'm holding the by Imaginatorium
So this is how you guys respond to a simple question about the program? Insults, rants, screaming, insults, condescending lectures?
Look, Brian, here's the deal: What I've put together while reading through the lines of the insults, rants, and lectures on baby music theory that were posted here in response to my question is that if a key change is made after the notes are entered, the program tries to preserve the intervals on the assumption that you are simply trying to transpose the music to another key. That's a nice feature, but it should be possible to toggle it off in the case the user is doing something else, namely, copying a score, with the possibility of errors that may need to be corrected later.
With respect to the key signature change problems, I've sorted out that mystery. I asked someone to proof read what I'd copied, and to make necessary corrections. I've looked at the changes he made (he marked them on the printed score as well) and there is a key signature change that was omitted. So that solves that mystery.
So how could this problem have been addressed? By having someone (perhaps even you) say this: If you change the key signature after you've already typed in notes, the program assumes you are trying to transpose and will modify the notes to preserve the intervals/chords. There is no way to toggle this feature off, so once that happens, your only recourse is to manually correct all of the sharps/flats/naturals that the program automatically added.
Unless there IS a way to toggle this off. If there is, that would have been a useful thing to be told as well.
With respect to the naturals in the key signature: Look again at your score. At the end of the last system before a time or key signature change, there will be a "heads up" showing the change (e.g., naturals for G and C after a key signature change from A major and F). But those naturals will not continue on into the following systems. I could not make the naturals go away in the subsequent systems and was asking how to do that. Telling me that's the way it's always done just made no sense. Why would the performer need to be reminded continually about the change rather than assuming that they would notice the "heads up"? But once piece of useful information I received in the middle of these lecture rants was the information about how to do that.
In reply to your rant by dcummins
Written communication can be difficult enough as it is, let's just be calm and rational. I could just as easily question why you seem to have become so angry and defensive, but let's just accept that for whatever reason, there have been miscommunications here, so let's put that aside and move on. I'm just interested in clearing up the technical issues here, not engaging in psychoanalysis.
You wrote:
[blockquote]So how could this problem have been addressed? By having someone (perhaps even you) say this: If you change the key signature after you've already typed in notes, the program assumes you are trying to transpose and will modify the notes to preserve the intervals/chords.[/blockquote]
Well, no, that's not accurate. The point is, a key signature change does *not* transpose a thing. It keeps the pitches exactly as you entered them. If you enter a G#, it remains a G# until you change it. Transposing would mean *changing* the pitches, and that is specifically what MuseScore does *not* do unless you specifically ask it to. And even then, I don't think there is a way to do this particular transposition: you presumably want alll notes to remain the same *except* the G#'s and C#'s, which you want to change in G's and C's. In other words, not really a "transposition" per se, but more of a "mode change". That would be an interesting and useful option to have some day.
Anyhow, if you read my initial response again, you'll see this more or less exactly what I said. I pointed out that it appeared you had entered notes before entering the key change, and I explained that this would result in G#'s being entered, and that changing key signatures later would *not* change that. The G#'s would remain G#'s.
As for what I said was "impossible", it seems we are miscommunating on that point again. We have always been talking about the key signature at the point of change only. I actually have no idea still what you mean about naturals in subsequent measures. Maybe you tried to correct the G#'s by adding explicit naturals? That's not how you do it. You do it by using the down arrow. The palette naturals say, "I want a natural to appear here" - whethere necessary according to the key or not. If you want to modify the pitch and have accidentals appear only as needed, that's what the arrow keys are for.
(rest of post deleted as not relevant - it crossed with another response)
In reply to QUOTE: Mark, I'm holding the by Imaginatorium
The three B flats is easy - all you have to do is apply the flats using the palette instead of using the arrow keys. Palette = I want this accidental to appear, whether needed or not. Arrow = I want the pitch modified, let MuseScore figure out whether accidentals are needed or not.
Anyhow, I too looked at a score of La Traviata, and three others as well. As it happens, every one of those used the naturals in the key signature. I also don't under what is meant by "every single measure following the change". Key signature of course only occur right where the change happens, and then at the beginning of subsequent systems - there are no key signatures anywhere else. Anyhow, as several of us have now observed, naturals *at the point of the key signature change* are quite common. Based on a cursory examination of the scores reproduced in the Norton Anthology 0 cover a large range of styles and time periods - I'd say maybe 50% of all published music that contains the type of key changes in question - reduction in number of flats or sharps - uses this convention. That's a rough guess, but it's definitely closer to 50/50 than, say, 99/1.
In reply to The three B flats is easy - by Marc Sabatella
Compare the two screen shots I posted. You'll see what I'm talking about. Or you can keep being obstinate and trying to prove the user is wrong and you're the reigning god of music.
In reply to more by dcummins
Again, please drop the attitude. Somehow we are miscommunicating, but assuming our intentions are anything but helpful is not helping. I don't understand what you are talking about, as I suspect you are not understanding me. But I *am* trying to be helpful.
In reply to Again, please drop the by Marc Sabatella
So I just read the full topic... dcummins, do you have a solution to your problem?
Currently, if the user changes the key signature before some notes, the notes are not changed. So changing from 3 to 1 sharp will let the C# and G# in and so add # in front of the notes. In the vast majority of the case, it's probably the expected behavior. Somehow the policy is following is "do not change the actual pitch of the notes unexpectedly". Switching off this behavior would be only helpful in very particular cases in my opinion. (Which is just my opinion of course...). So currently, using MuseScore 1.3, you have to go through all the C# and G# and make them natural. The quickest way would be to ctrl + click each of them and press arrow down.
About natural in key signature, there are different traditions. Natural before, natural after, no natural except to go back to Cmajor/Aminor. For a full discussion and examples, see http://musescore.org/en/node/20724
The end of the discussion is that MuseScore 1.3 will put natural before the key change to cancel them, it's "historical". You can hide them with a right click on the key signature and "Hide naturals". Unfortunately, there is no way to remove the natural in courtesy key signature (the one at the end of a line). You will have to get ride of the courtesy key if you don't want them.
In the next version of MuseScore, the default will be no natural, expect to go back to C major / A minor. It seems to be the most used behavior nowadays. There will be options to deal with natural before and natural after the key changes for users who wants to respect other traditions. And of course, hiding naturals for courtesy key signature will be fixed...
Hope it helps. People are here to help each other. They can be awkward, or written form can be misleading, or english is not their first language (it's my case if you didn't guess...) but be assure they are really trying to help and most of them (Marc, Jojo, Churchorganist...) have an extensive knowledge of the software and music engraving.
I see I'm a little late for the party... please have a look at the attachment.
Regards
In reply to Welcome Aboard... by Jm6stringer
Wow.... wasn't that interesting....
All credit to the responders for their forbearance. Impressive.
However I must say only ran through it about 2.5 times. I think I'd need a further 2.5 and a bit of furrowed brow thinking to clearly understand what everyone's saying. Like, perhaps more succinct clarity might've been good on both sides.
Sobering. I'm going to have to pay attention to my own posts. I'm sure they're not the best in that respect.
But, yeah, the forbearance was creditable I think. Very creditable.
I think this discussion is about the possibility to correct a chosen key signature after input of notes. Now musescore reads the underlying data input (notes, like G#) and the key signature and combines this to the score on screen.
Is it possible to let the user draw notes and key signature (on screen) and let musescore interpret this to the notes after the user gives a certain command ? The user is then free to draw what he/she wants and let the program translate it to the actual notes.
Is the following an idea to implement a key signature error correction?
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) it is easy to let musescore strip out all the flats and sharps of the input and save it in say, data2, show that on screen, let the user choose a key signature and let musescore add the sharps and flats to data2 and save it to data3. Data3 are the (real) midi notes after that.
Thanks,
Jan
First time poster and user; Version 1.3. Created page starting in C-Major. Entered a page of notes to create a scale page. Then I wanted to change the key signature line by line. The first one I changed, C-Major to D-Major (2 sharps), it put a natural by all following notes after the key change, on notes F and C when in fact they should now be sharp. Am I missing something here? Thanks.
In reply to Can't change key signatures correctly by wa6ibu
If you want to transpose, use the corresponding menu...
In reply to Can't change key signatures correctly by wa6ibu
Yes, select the measures you want to change key and use Transpose instead of dropping in a key change. A key change won't change the notes already entered.
In reply to Can't change key signatures correctly by wa6ibu
I had the same problem. I mistakenly started with key signature D, instead of A. After a lot of entering, I spotted my problem and changed the key signature to A. MuseScore kept the pitches the same, and added accidentals as needed, which was logical in a sense. But I the human wanted to fix my human syntactic visual bug, without respecting the deeper semantics of what I had created. Here's what you do to fix it:
Open up a new MuseScore file, and set up the correct new key signature. Cut and pasted the notes from the old score into the new score. Voila! The underlying pitches are not copied, and you end up with what you want!
In reply to Changing key signature solution by MikeN
Or just use the transpose feature...
In reply to Or just use the transpose by Jojo-Schmitz
If I am understanding correctly, I don't think there is a way to do this by transposition. I believe we're talking a a case where, for instance, someone typed "C D E" expecting to get a C, D, and E, but didn't notice the key signature adding was for Bb major, and thus the E he typed actually got entered as an Eb. Now he want to change the key signature to C and for this to have the side effect of also changing all his Eb's to E's but leaving all other notes exactly as they were - in other words, exactly what would happen if you simply erased the key signature if this were pencil and paper.
In 2.0, there will actually be a way to get this: select the passage, hit Shift+Down, then Shift+Up. These commands do a "diatonic transposition".
In reply to Or just use the transpose by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, Marc, your understanding of the problem is correct. And I agree, normal transposition won't help. Are you sure that diatonic transposition will work, when it is implemented?
In reply to Yes, Marc, your understanding by MikeN
Worked for me when I tried t. Feel free to download an experimental nightly build and see for yourself. But still, you're much better getting it right in the first palce. MuseScore won' be able to tell the difference between notes outside the key you entered on purpose versus ones you entered by mistake, so *everything* ends up being diatonic. No way around that - MuseScore can't read minds. Realistically, this is a mistake you'll make only a couple of times; by the time 2.0 comes out, you won't need this feature.
In mathematics, a "non-commutative" function gives a certain answer one way but (may give) a different answer another.
When you assign a Key Signature and then type in a note, MuseScore uses a function to display (and save the value of) a pitch. This function is non-commutative in that the displayed (and saved) pitch is derived from the Key Signature and the note entered. Once you have done this, however, changing the Key Signature does not reverse the process.
It would be possible to write code to do this but it would have to record every key-stroke at note entry as it couldn't derive it from the pitches themselves. Recording note entry would get horribly complicated once the inevitable mistakes and corrections had been made.
Diatonic transposition ought to help when one has assigned a Key Signature incorrectly but the main solution is to be careful in the first place.
Notes ----> Transpose