Automated divisi / combined staves?
In larger orchestral scores, I’ve seen staves for 3 (or more) instruments divided I and II on the upper stave and III on the lower at one point, and I on the upper/ II and III on the lower elsewhere in the score. The engraver was just using what was most logical for that section of music.
I can replicate this using differently named staves combined with the Hide Empty Staves feature for the full score, but this approach doesn’t carry over when extracting parts.
Is there a workaround for parts extraction (short of never putting I, II, and III on the same stave)?
If not, is a feature that allows for this being considered for 3.x?
Thanks,
Comments
Not exactly sure how you are thinking that would work - how could MuseScore know which part was on which staff at what time? But FWIW, MuseScore 3 will have the ability to extract vocies to parts. It's at least partially implemented in current master builds.
In reply to Not exactly sure how you are… by Marc Sabatella
What Marty is asking for is very common in Symphonic pieces, particularly for the Trumpets, horns and Trombones because they commonly have 3 or more instruments. With such large scores, it is used as a space saver.
I haven't looked at 3.0 at all, but basically what I would like to see is to have the option of merging instruments on a page by page basis.
For example, this will allow the user to combine Trombone 1 with 2 while they are playing the same rhythm then the next page allow Trombone 2 & 3 to be combined while they are playing the same rhythm. To complete this example, Trombone 3 may be tacit on the first of the pages and Trombone 1 plays a different rhythm on the second page. This is what is happening in reality on a score I am working on right now.
In reply to What Marty is asking for is… by mike320
I get that's common, what I don't get is how it could be done automatically. Sometimes multiple notes on a staff indicate double stops, sometimes they indicate divisi, and sometimes they indicate two separate parts. How could MuseScore know which is which?
In reply to I get that's common, what I… by Marc Sabatella
As I said, I haven't looked at 3.0 at all.
What I imagine MuseScore doing is allowing the user to say Staves 1 and 2 are to be combined on a given page. This would allow the user, in continuous view, to enter the measures for those two staves, then in the selected measures, they would be combined on a single line in page view.
This would allow for more flexibility in using the merged staves that requiring the user to enter the notes into 2 voices in a staff and then MuseScore trying to sort out which notes go on which staves.
As far as double stops are concerned, double stops are normally entered into a single voice, though I have seen exceptions. These exceptions already require workarounds that would not be applicable to this situation. Also, I have not seen situations where combining staves would be useful for instruments that play double stops such as strings (e.g. violins). I also don't see where this would be useful for other instruments capable of playing chords such as Guitars and Pianos. I cannot imagine how you would combine two piano or Guitar parts onto a single staff and expect any human to be able to discern which notes belong to which instrument unless they are in unison, then this feature becomes useless, or if used for the purpose of later extracting parts, one part would just be made invisible to make it look right.
This answers the question of Divisi versus double stops. If strings are to be played divisi, then all Violins 1's will have the exact same part on one staff as opposed to winds, such as flutes that have individual parts. There are standard methods for the violin section to decide who will play which notes in the divisi section. So the strings will already have the divisi sections entered into two or more voices as needed. If more than one staff is needed for a divisi section for the violins, there will be the same multiple staves on the Violin 1 part seen by everyone who is playing the Violin 1 part in my example.
The winds will not see multiple parts on their sheet music so divisi is of no issue to them. On the conductors score, wind divisi is self evident. Since a flute can only play one note, "double stops" must be played by 2 different flutes and are not even normally indicated as divisi on the score. The only indication expected on a conductors score is if less than all of the instruments in the section are playing notes or if any instruments are in unison. In the case of a score with 3 flutes, unison would be indicated as a3. or if 2 are in unison you would expect to see the indication one on top of the other such as...
1.3. a2.
2.
...indicating flute 1 & 3 play the top notes unison while flute 2 plays the bottom line. And I have see such notations. As previously stated, when the parts are extracted, 3 flute parts will be extracted with only one line of notes per part.
In reply to As I said, I haven't looked… by mike320
For what it’s worth, I thought I came across a blog entry once for Finale or Sibelius that hinted that such a feature was included. I might be mis-remembering though, and I know practically nothing about those programs.
In reply to As I said, I haven't looked… by mike320
The problem with doing things on a "page" basis is that a page is not a fixed thing. Any change you make to the score that affects layout will possibly push measures from one page to another, and then what you specified might not make sense any more. When you start, measures 23 and 24 might have been on different pages, so you entered the music differently with the expectation that in measure 23 Violin II is combined with Violin I but in measure 24 it is combined with Violin III. Then, after some edit later, they might end up on the same page, and what should MuseScore do then?
The reason I mention double stops and divisi is that again, unless you manually specify which notes are for which parts, there is no way for MuseScore to know the difference. So the only solution would be to enter the music onto different staves if they are logically different parts, then find ways of manually combining them. MuseScore could potentially make this manual process easier, but the point is, I don't see a way for it to make these choices automatically.
In reply to The problem with doing… by Marc Sabatella
These are all valid points, and you wouldn't want this as some kind of default behavior.
Perhaps instead of on a "per page" basis the engraver could implement it on a "per measure" basis? It would be more labor-intensive than if done per-page, but would still be an improvement. And remember, it needs to be looked at from two perspectives: the conductor's score, and parts extraction.
Unless someone knows a better approach than I do, at present MuseScore's parts extraction is limited to when the parts are done one-per-stave unless the musician is willing to accept a fairly clumsy result, with other parts occasionally appearing in your part.
I don't presently have any associates who direct at a high level to consult with, but I would assume that at least occasionally, one-per-stave makes a score that is taller than you would want.
In reply to The problem with doing… by Marc Sabatella
Per page was a bad way for me to describe it. Per measure is a better term. The user would decide which measures are wanted on a page then force the measures onto a certain page, then it would work per page.
As far as the violins are concerned, I addressed that in some detail. This feature would not normally be useful for violins or any other instrument capable of playing a chord or double stops. Symphonic scores do not combine Violin 1 and Violin 2 on the same staff unless they are in total unison and then it is done for space saving purposes. Even this is rare. I have seen instruments such as harps and pianos combined on to one staff with an instructions such as Harp 1 & 2, but they have always been in total unison on these pages.
I would not expect MuseScore to make this decision automatically, it would be up to the user to decide which measures are combined on which staves just as it is currently up to the user to tell MuseScore he is entering notes into a voice besides voice 1.
MuseScore does do some automatic layout, but if the user is trying to allow more staves in a system, the user will usually need to use line breaks to limit which measures end up in a system.
This is certainly a feature that could be implemented in 3.x, providing someone is willing to do it of course! (It might make a good GSoC project!) MuseScore would distinguish between double stops and divisi using the same rules that human use...
However, for the time being your best bet is either:
1. Write all parts out on separate staves in the main score
If this is for Trumpets, your score will contains staves for:
This doesn't use space very efficiently in the main score, but it does allow you to extract parts.
Note: This is what you have to do for OpenScore. Instruments may only share staves if there is a very large number of instruments (30 or more) and using shared staves significantly reduces this number.
2. Write the parts out in full on separate staves which are hidden in the main score
Your score will contain staves for:
Enable "hide empty staves" and this gives you exactly what you want, but requires a lot of effort!
3. Add a single instrument with multiple (non-linked) staves.
Your score will contain staves for:
Enable "hide empty staves" and only use the staves you need. When you extract parts you will extract a single "Trumpets" part that will use a single stave in some places and multiple staves in other places, just like in the main score.
You can annotate the staves with staff text to say which instruments are supposed to play a given stave at any given time. Set the staff text to use the Instrument Change text style in the Inspector (don't add an Instrument Change symbol from the palette or you will get extra instruments in the Mixer).
4. Combine methods (2) and (3).
In reply to This is certainly a feature… by shoogle
Yes, keying the handling of divisi et al to text is a way to go, but again, that's not really automatic - it depends on the user adding that text and using it appropriately, perhaps also setting up the necessary staff text properties (although if it's preset in the palette then no worries). And it's still the case that you would have to decide when to combine violin II with violin I versus with violin III versus having all three on separate staves and somehow manually convey this to MuseScore.
So indeed, it's doable, and the framework is already partially in place, but it's still kind a long ways from where we are to what was originally being proposed, and most likely we could only eventually get part way there.