Changing Key Signature in Beta
Hello all!
I'm working on a score with a key change from Db Maj (5 flats) to no specified key at all. Technically, that would be a change to the key of C, but I just want to work without a key signature on ANY instruments, including transposing instruments (clarinet, trumpet, etc.).
The problem is, when I change the key to C, the transposing instruments revert to their natural key. Like I said, I don't want any key signature on these instruments, regardless of their natural key; I just want to work without being constrained by a key. I tried doing ctrl+drag to change only the key of a transposing instrument to the key of C, but it kept the natural key. I also tried simply deleting the natural key signature, but then it just reverted back to the previous key (of course).
This was a simple process in 1.3, but the new feature in Beta that changes all key signatures in one click is messing that up. I really like that feature because it makes the process of changing keys much faster, but there are a couple kinks when it comes to transposing instruments (I've encountered a related problem, but I'll leave that for another day).
Also note: I do NOT want to work in concert pitch, so please do not suggest that. I didn't have to do that in 1.3, I shouldn't have to do that now. There are at least two ways to work around the problem, but that involves either starting a new score for this one part or working back in 1.3. So, maybe I'm just missing the answer that is right in front of me?
Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!
Comments
I think pressing Ctrl while driving and dropping the key sig, changes it for that staff only
In reply to I think pressing Ctrl while by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, I know that much. Unfortunately, that does not work. I cannot override the "natural" key of the transposing instrument.
In reply to Yes, I know that much. by pabond007
Can you not simply Rt. click and "set invisible"?
In reply to Yes, I know that much. by pabond007
What do you mean when you say it does not work? It does what it is supposed to do - it sets the (concert) key of the instrument to be different from everything else in the score. So if you want a Bb instrument to appear to have a C key signature once transposed, you just need to give it a Bb (concert) key signature, by Ctrl+dragging the Bb key signature from the palette to that staff. Then it will affect that staff only, and the C instruments will remain in C. Similarly Ctrl+drag F to F instruments, Eb to Eb instruments.
Now, this *works*, but is obviously not ideal. Currently, custom key signatures don't work at all. But I am hopeful that once those are fixed, they will provide an easy way to write atonal music - simply add (globally) a custom empty key signature to your score. We could even add that to the palette. Either that or I will endeavor to support atonal key signatures directly. But meanwhile, the above *should* work.
In reply to What do you mean when you say by Marc Sabatella
Thanks, Marc. I understand the program is working the way it should, but I also think there is less user-control over the key signatures in the update. See my attachment for an example of what I want to do: Go from a set key to no key at all, even on the transposing instruments (the bottom staff). That was a very simple process in 1.3; all I had to do was drag the "empty" key signature (C) over to the instrument and everything was fine. Now, it is more complicated than it needs to be, in my opinion.
In reply to Thanks, Marc. I understand by pabond007
I think you are misunderstanding.
if you have concert pitch turned *off*, then it is true in 1.3 you could drag C major and it added C major to that staff only. But if you then turned concert pitch back *off*, you would find that you had really added Bb major. So the key signature was still transposing.
All that has changed in 2.0 is that you need to drag Bb instead of C, regardless of whether concert pitch is on or off, and if you want it to apply to one staff only, you have to use Ctrl when you drag. So it's still possible to get the *exact* same effect; it's just the process has changed slightly. Use Ctrl, and drag "Bb" instead of C, just as I said before. Try it - it works. You end up with *exactly* the same results as 1.3. So nothing has been lsot at all.
Again, in both 1.3 and 2.0, it's not ideal for atonal music in that if you want no key signature with concert pitch *off*, you have the flats with it *on*. And as I said before, I'm hoping to improve that before release. But in 2.0, it's a *huge* advantage for tonal music, because now you only have to drag the key signature once instead of once for every staff (and remember to get the transposition right).
I am testing Musescore 2.0 Beta 1. Now I am copying a score in the key of E Major (Concert pitch). In alto saxophone part musescore shows 7 sharps but the manuscript displays Db flat.
Do someone know how to force musescore to simplify the key signature (showing flats instead of sharps)?
In reply to Another point. by mtuliosax
I've had this problem as well with an A Clarinet. It seems like there is no way to override the key signature Musescore decides is appropriate if it gives you sharps instead of flats or vice versa.
If you are just interested in copying a specific manuscript and hearing the playback, rather than using it for a performance, then this is the work around I use:
1. Use 1.3 to write the part using the key signature you want (1.3 has much better user control over key sigs if you ask me). Write the part as its own score.
2. Save the score, and then open it in Beta 1. Also open the larger score you are working on.
3. Copy the sax part from the individual score, and paste it into the large score wherever it is supposed to go. Yes, it is displayed in the more complex key signature, but the notes will play correctly regardless and you don't have to worry about transposing yourself.
Like I said, that work around is only useful for playback and you only care about hearing the right notes instead of actually performing the piece.
I hope this particular issue will be fixed when the final release of 2.0 comes out. There needs to be a way to override the key signature musescore gives you, especially when dealing with transposing instruments. The program should not act smarter than the user by not allowing an override.
In reply to I've had this problem as well by pabond007
I assume you mean, you wish an A clarinet to use a non-standard key signature like "G# major" rather than being simplified to the more standard "Ab major" for a piece that is in B concert? I would assume once custom key signatures are supported again (they currently don't work), you'd be about to do this. But in any case, that's kind of different from what is being discussed here.
Not sure what you mean about 1.3 having more control, though. It's quite the other way around. 1.,3 forces you to change key signatures one staff at a time - there is no other way. 2.0 gives you the option of either changing all staves at once - the default - or using Ctrl while dragging to change the key signature of just a single staff. Aside from support for custom key signatures - which 99% of users will never need and in any case, I expect to be fixed before release - there isn't anything I am aware of you can do in 1.3 that you can't do in 2.0, but 2.0 definitely provides capabilities 1.3 lacks. If there is something you are having trouble figuring out how to do in 2.0 that was possible in 1.3, you should ask about it here in the forum. If does it truly does turn out something has been lsot, then file an issue, and I'm sure it will be fixed.
In reply to I assume you mean, you wish by Marc Sabatella
We are not talking about custom key signatures at all, or atonal music for that matter (see your own response from earlier in the thread). All we want to do is override the key signature musescore gives us with the *correct* one, the one *we* want to use. Not a custom key, a standard one.
I wanted to go from four sharps on an A Clarinet to no key signature at all. When I drag C major onto the score, the transposing instruments revert to their native keys (three flats for A Clarinet). Not wanting these three flats, I ctrl+drag C maj to the A Clarinet staff. No change. Deleting the three flats reverts the staff back to the key being used before (four sharps). Your answer was "the program is doing what it's supposed to do." No, the program is supposed to do what I want it to do, and what I want it to do is something that could be done in 1.3 with absolutely no problems whatsoever. You say there isn't anything 1.3 could do that 2.0 can't. Well, getting rid of all key signatures is one thing that could be done previously but not now.
As for mtuliosax, he/she simply wants to change the given sharp key signature to the corresponding flats key (at least that's how I'm reading his comment above). I have encountered this problem as well. A manuscript specifies flats but musescore gives you sharps. And once again, you cannot change what musescore gives you. In fact, when I encountered this problem (again with an A clarinet), the key the piece was written in was Ab maj (four flats), with the A Clarinet written with five sharps. Instead, musescore gives me 7 flats! So, I ctrl+drag the *correct* key signature (five sharps) over to the staff, and musescore decides to give me two sharps instead!
Really, what the two of us want to do is pretty standard conventions in music writing: writing with no established key signature across all instruments, and using a simpler key in place of it's more complex counterpart (both issues revolving around transposing instruments). Standard stuff that Musescore 1.3 can do with no headaches whatsoever, yet 2.0 cannot.
I really can't make the problem any clearer than that if you still do not understand the problem. If these issues are not resolved in 2.0, fine - I still have 1.3.
In reply to We are not talking about by pabond007
Sorry, but I am still having trouble understanding what you mean. I think you are saying you want no displayed key signature on any instrument's transposed part. but this is *exactly* what i already explained how to do. Perhaps you missed it. Here it is again:
All you have to do is drag the correct *concert* key signature to the staff. So if you want an A clarinet to show a C major key signature, that's the key of A concert. So drag an *A* key signature to the staff at that point, and you'll get it to display in C major. If your piece is not actually in A - you just want all instruments to show no key signature - then use Ctrl while dragging that "A" key signature to the A clarinet staff, and only that staff will get that key signature. Repeat with the appropriate key signature for each transposing instrument you wish to have no key signature.
This *is*, btw, what is normally called an "atonal key signature". That's why I used that term. As I mentioned before, this shouyld also be possible by creating a custom empty keysignature and dragging that to the score - then you'd get all staves at once, and it wouldn't transpose when you hit Concert Pitch (I assume this is exactly the desired behavior). But for now, custom key signatures don't work. When they do, though, this will be an easier way to get the behavior I think you want.
If this does not answer your question, please post the score you are having trouble with, and describe exactly which measure you want changed and on which staves and what you want it changed to, and I'll show you step by exactly how to do it.
In reply to Sorry, but I am still having by Marc Sabatella
For example, here is a score that I *think* does exactly what you want: changing from 4 sharps in the A clarinet part to no sharps. The four sharps in the A clarinet part are there at the beginning because the concert key is C#. I also have a Bb clarinet and a Flute in my score so you can see that the first part of the score shows the key signatures all properly transposed. The flute shows the C# key signature, but that would be D# concert for Bb clarinet, which of course is not a standard key signature (it would require two double sharps, and no one would be able to read it), so MuseScore has simplified it to Eb exactly as any orchestration textbook would suggest doing. Four measures later I change to an atonal key signature: no sharps for any instrument. I did this by Ctrl+dragging C major to the flute staff, Bb major to the Bb clarinet staff, and A major to the A clarinet staff. As far as I can tell, this is exactly what you want, is it not?
If this is not what you are describing, I apologize, but rest assured I am not deliberately trying to blow you off. i am doing my best to understand what you are asking for. If it's not this, maybe post your own score made in 1.3 that shows what you actually want?
In reply to I assume you mean, you wish by Marc Sabatella
It's too bad to have to put key signatures one by one in musescore 1.3. On the other hand this allows greater control on how you want the accidentals are shown, for example 5 flats instead of sharps 7. Musescore 2.0 calculates the key signature for transposing instruments, but it would be desirable in certain situations If you could control the simplification of signature.
In reply to More control is desirable. by mtuliosax
Yes, I do agree with that. Simplification of key signatures (eg, turning 7 sharps into the simpler 5 flats) is usually desirable, but it would be good to be able to disable this. One way to achieve it would would be to make it so ctrl+drag to a staff while concert pitch was off disabled transposition, so you could drag the transposed key signature rather than the concert key one. Another would be a style option or staff property to control whether transposed key signatures simplify or not - or perhaps, a maximum number of sharps to allow.