MS4 wrong notation (stem misalignment) of two voices in harmonic seconds when the upper voice is dotted
MU3 got this right, MU4 gets it wrong. The stems should be aligned, meaning the upper note needs to be on the left, the lower note on the right. Yes, the dot on the upper note means that sometimes the lower voice gets pushed to the right, especially as in this example when the dot is placed in the center of the same space on which the upper note is placed. But the upper note should absolutely NOT be positioned to the right of the lower note. That notation is simply wrong. It looks horrid and makes scores from MS4 unpublishable. In the forum this same problem shows up in many other posts, but nobody seems to have reported it for the glaring notation mistake that it is. Please fix it. Thanks!
MuseScore 4: WRONG
MuseScore 3: CORRECT
Comments
Mu4 allows for a denser layout, so is IMHO better here
But feel free to report this on GitHub and so bring to to @oktophonie's attention
In reply to Mu4 allows for a denser… by Jojo-Schmitz
Thank you for the reply and directions. I was not aware that bugs need to be reported on GitHub. To do that one needs a GuitHub account. Please excuse my ignorance, but why then does this forum exist? It would appear that reporting a bug here is now a useless exercise, or?
In reply to Thank you for the reply and… by neo-barock
Here in the forum we can make sure whether it really is a bug, or just a missunderstanding
In reply to Here in the forum we can… by Jojo-Schmitz
Or a duplicate.
Everyone has their own opinion. I'm sure someone will come along and tell us what Gould says. Attached is the default layout of three mostly random voices in MU4. It put the dotted note after the first 1/8 th note in voice 2 right from the start.
![dot.png]( "dot.png")
Then I tried the same thing in MU3. After the first two voices were entered, the dotted note was first. Just Like the OP wants. But as soon as I added the third voice (the lower notes) the dotted note jumped to the right of the 1/8 th note ( just like MU4) and made a big gap after itself.
In reply to Everyone has their own… by bobjp
No. That's a different situation, where a lower voice crosses above an upper voice.
And no, this is definitely not a matter of opinion. MU4 is flat out wrong here. Absolutely no publisher shoves the upper voice to the right. It's wrong. The stems need to align, as stated above.
In reply to No. That's a different… by neo-barock
Sorry. There is no voice crossing in my example.
In reply to Sorry. There is no voice… by bobjp
Look again. In your example, the voice with the dot is a stems-down lower voice, crossing above the stems-up upper voice. That is not the situation in question.
In reply to Look again. In your example,… by neo-barock
So you didn't read my post. The dotted note is voice one. The run of 1/8th notes is voice two. When I first entered them in MU3, all was as you want. When I entered the first lower note, The dotted note jumped to the right. The lower note stem was originally stem down. My example is sloppy to be sure. My point is that MU3 ends up doing the same thig MU4 does. What do publishers say about this three voice situation? Go ahead try it yourself
In reply to So you didn't read my post… by bobjp
Wrong. The voices are obviously crossing in your example, which anyone can see is not the same situation. it doesn't matter which number is assigned to which voice. They must only be different voices. And not crossing.
In reply to Wrong. The voices are… by neo-barock
As said earlier: report this on GitHub
Or ask on Discord
In reply to As said earlier: report this… by Jojo-Schmitz
Excuse me again, but why is that my job? It requires me to open a GitHub account, figure out how to use that system, and repeat the effort given to post this. That isn't how this forum used to work anyway.
In reply to Excuse me again, but why is… by neo-barock
You want it fixed? Then this is your job. Free and Open Source software comes at a price...
You don't care? Then it isn't... really simple as that
In reply to You want it fixed? Then… by Jojo-Schmitz
Interesting. I don't think anyone seeing this post would get the impression that I don't care. But perhaps they might think that it doesn't matter to anyone else, or others only want to argue with wrong arguments for no reason.
In reply to Interesting. I don't think… by neo-barock
Indeed, that's why it is your job to report it on GitHub
In reply to Excuse me again, but why is… by neo-barock
"support and bug report" can be confusing. But this is a community forum. I rarely see musescore staff here. Anyone who responds to you is a volunteer who is not paid for it.
They may or may not create an issue for you. It is their choice, but not their obligation.
However, people here are very responsive and always happy to help, which is very good for software you do not pay money for.
Personally, I create issues for others if I am personally interested in them, for example in case of a crash or corrupted score, but this is not your case.
In reply to "support and bug report" can… by mercuree
100% agree. I don't see this issue as being mine, so won't report it ;-)
In reply to 100% agree. I don't see this… by Jojo-Schmitz
As I said, it has come up again and again on this forum, but people have not called it by its name. For example, https://musescore.org/en/node/341673
In reply to As I said, it has come up… by neo-barock
He askes if anyone knows how to correct this obviously wrong stem mis-alignment in this bar in Bach's chorale prelude:
Bach turned into note-vomit by Mu4: WRONG
![Screenshot 2024-08-16 at 12.09.01.png]( "Screenshot 2024-08-16 at 12.09.01.png")
The same measure in Mu3 without any spacing correcting: CORRECT
![Screenshot 2024-08-16 at 12.13.31.png]( "Screenshot 2024-08-16 at 12.13.31.png")
BTW: here's what Elain Gould say on that matter:
![Screenshot 2024-08-16 114016.png]( "Screenshot 2024-08-16 114016.png")
![Screenshot 2024-08-16 114129.png]( "Screenshot 2024-08-16 114129.png")
![Screenshot 2024-08-16 114257.png]( "Screenshot 2024-08-16 114257.png")
and
and
In reply to BTW: here's what Elain Gould… by Jojo-Schmitz
All those examples confirm what I'm saying, except this one:
No serious publisher uses that except as a last resort in a worst case scenario. Look at all the examples and look at any random sampling of published music, and you will see that the rule is to align the stems. Shoving the dotted note to the right does not save space as you claim in your first reply. It does exactly the opposite. You should also look at Gould's admonitions about aligning stems.
In reply to All those examples confirm… by neo-barock
Feel free to use those snippets as ammunition if your bug report on GitHub ;-)
In reply to Feel free to use those… by Jojo-Schmitz
Thank you for posting the Gould pages.
In reply to Thank you for posting the… by neo-barock
Maybe https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/18290 is a match?
Or https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/16394 ?
In reply to Maybe https://github.com… by Jojo-Schmitz
Those are different issues, but are definitely related to this issue. I'll come back to this later and post everything on Github, trying to make things as clear as possible. Thanks again for your help!
In reply to BTW: here's what Elain Gould… by Jojo-Schmitz
The absurdity of this shove the dotted note to the right nonsense is most clearly shown in examples where the lower voice continues, as shown below. Mu3 does bizarre incorrect spacing by default.
MU3 default: CORRECT but with wrong spacing
![Mu3.png]( "Mu3.png")
That can be corrected using chord position left on the lower note, then Leading Space left on the next 16th note.
MU3 spacing corrected: CORRECT
![Mu3 corrected.png]( "Mu3 corrected.png")
Compare that to the notation of Mu4.
Mu4: WRONG
![Mu4.png]( "Mu4.png")
In contrapuntal music, exactly this situation can appear many times in a single piece of music. Mu4 is obviously wrong here and it needs to be corrected.
In reply to The absurdity of this shove… by neo-barock
I only have questions about what you say about publishers because you haven't backed it up with information from a publisher. You say that you haven't seen examples of the doted note on the "wrong" side. Therefore, you say publishers won't except dotted notes on the "wrong" side. Have you had a score rejected for this reason? Or know someone who has had that happen? Publishers tend to use their own typesetters. What if a well known composer wanted their notation a certain way. Let's say they had a good reason for putting the dotted note on the "wrong" side. Do you really think a publisher is going to refuse that score? None of us are "well known", but I think you get my point.
As for Gould. She is a record of the current state of notation. Notation that has always been, and always will be, in flux. Notation that differs from country to country. So much so that we can't even agree what to call a quarter note.
In reply to I only have questions about… by bobjp
" So much so that we can't even agree what to call a quarter note."
It's not a crisis that some of us call a quarter note a crotchet, noire or Viertelnote.
But with luck we should agree on the notation we see on the page and how it sounds? Music is a universal language.
;-)
In reply to " So much so that we can't… by DanielR
DanielR, that was a poor attempt at humor :) Music is indeed a universal language. But notation isn't.
In reply to " So much so that we can't… by DanielR
I can add "fjärdedel" to that list.
In reply to I only have questions about… by bobjp
Look, you'll find at least 20 examples of this in Bach's 15 Sinfonias:
Sinfonia 2, bar 27
Sinfonia 4, bar 4
Sinfonia 6, bars 4, 26
Sinfonia 7, bar 23
Sinfonia 8, bars 5, 23
Sinfonia 11, bars 3, 4, 6, 7, 31, 32, 67, 68, 70
Sinfonia 12, bar 5
Sinfonia 13, bars 17, 28
Sinfonia 14, bar 17
This music has obviously been printed by many different publishers. So check them. You'll see how it's done. Bach's music is the gold standard, and Mu4 consistently ruins the notation in every case.
In reply to Look, you'll find at least… by neo-barock
That list tells us that Publishers are printing the music the way Bach wrote it. Looking at original manuscripts tells us so. But that is all it tells us. Again, they are printing it the way he wrote it. That doesn't mean that they won't accept something written differently.
In reply to That list tells us that… by bobjp
That is utter nonsense.
Check the Art of Fugue keyboard edition from any publisher. Bach wrote it in open score notation, one part per staff. How do the publishers handle all these same situations in that work when they put all the lines together of a grand staff? Exactly the same way. Because that is how it's done. Case closed!
In reply to That is utter nonsense. by neo-barock
But that is still not proof that they will not accept something written differently. MU4 may well be wrong. But that doesn't mean a publisher won't accept it.
In reply to But that is still not proof… by bobjp
And I suspect that most publishers either have a style sheet that would cover it, or they have an in-house editing staff. They're certainly used to getting charts that could use some massaging.
Reading the comments here it seems that Musescore could benefit from a functionality to reorder voices (maybe like the "accidental column" controls getting added in 4.4). With notation what is clearest is correct and there are definitely situations where the notehead on the right is clearest, as Gould mentions. Adding voice offset functionality would solve all of this.
In reply to Reading the comments here it… by vallieplushie
I'll jump in here, and add my own opinion: It doesn't matter what Gould says, or what publishers may or may not do, or how MuseScore or Finale or Dorico do it. What's important is what is going to be the most clear to the performer. Just try to be consistent, and know when to break the rules.
In reply to I'll jump in here, and add… by mikey12045
100% agree. I'm just saying that it would be good to give the functionality to make things clearest in this situation, since there isn't a "one size fits all" approach.
In reply to 100% agree. I'm just saying… by vallieplushie
In Mu3, if you really must have the upper note on the right, you can already do that. There is however no reasonable argument for making that the default. This is about the correct default behavoir, and it's obvious what is correct and what should only be a rare exception.
In reply to In Mu3, if you really must… by neo-barock
But why keep posting on this forum? It's becoming pointless, and it's no longer the best place. If you want to get things moving, do it on Github (here: https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues) where the developer (ie @oktophonie) who implemented this new default can at least make his point.
NB: Opening an account on Github is trivial (you're asked for an e-mail address, a password, and that's it).
In reply to But why keep posting on this… by cadiz1
Well sorry, I've continued to post here in order to respond to others who keep posting here, but yes it is quite tedious, so I'll be happy to stop. As I said, I'll post it on GitHub, but honestly, why doesn't @oktophonie just look at this post? I mean, he does presumably have internet access, right? It's all rather annoying.
In reply to Well sorry, I've continued… by neo-barock
We've already answered. This is a user forum. Don't waste any more time, post on Github. You can do it :)
In reply to We've already answered. This… by cadiz1
Actually it has become a user only forum once MuseScore 4 team started to use github and decided to stay there and makes this one a user only one.
It used to be the correct place to report bugs.
The current procedure discussing potential bugs here between users and only reporting what seems true bugs on github has its merits, but might seem dubble work to new users. And confusing when super users such as Marc or Jojo answer as they are so knowledgeable that they look like they are MuseScore official team.
@cadiz and of course I know you know all this, that was to offer more context to whoever might need it.