staccato deleted by the prolongation link

• Dec 17, 2024 - 12:30

Hello
I would like to report here a problem that I had with Musescore: my staccato is deleted by the prolongation link applied to the note. In the example provided in the piece, the Staccato is not done!

Attachment Size
extension link, and staccato.mscz 21.85 KB
staccato.jpg 4.32 KB

Comments

• Dec 17, 2024 - 16:27

GEMINI

can you do a staccato on a quarter note?

Absolutely, you can do a staccato on a quarter note!

Staccato is a technique that consists of playing a note in a short and detached manner. It applies to all note values, from whole notes to sixteenth notes.

Why do a staccato on a quarter note?

To create contrast: Staccato allows you to highlight certain notes in relation to others, thus creating a more interesting rhythmic play.
To express an emotion: A staccato can bring lightness, liveliness or precision to a performance.
To respect the composer's indications: If the composer has indicated a staccato on a quarter note, it is because he wants a particular effect at this precise point in the piece.

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• Dec 17, 2024 - 16:34

Having a staccato marking on the first of a tied pair of notes makes no sense. A staccato mark requires the note it is attached to to be played shorter than its nominal duration. However a note with a following note tied to it has to be played for the combined duration of both notes. So what do you do if there is a staccato indication on the first note, shorten the first note, but lengthen it as well?

A staccato marking on the last of a tied pair of notes is understandable - play somewhat shorter than the combined duration of the tied notes.

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• Dec 17, 2024 - 17:55

Since the tie also serves to represent a longer note across the rhythm or the measure boundaries, I think it makes sense to place the staccato marking on the first note. For example, a half note placed on beat 4 with a staccato marking gives two quarter notes, the first of which has a staccato dot, the second does not.
But I am far from knowing much about music theory ...

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• Dec 17, 2024 - 19:28

A tied note pair is a note that is twice their cumulative duration. The fact that they are doubled is only due to the separation of measures in Musescore.

You state that staccato requires that the note to which it is attached be played shorter than its nominal duration, but then it is not staccato, but a note of shorter duration. Moreover, staccato is a more nuanced concept than simply reducing the duration of a note. Although playing a shorter note is a key element of staccato, it is not sufficient on its own to characterize this type of articulation.

Staccato involves a sharp and precise attack of the note, followed by a rapid release. It is this sharp attack that gives staccato its distinctive character, creating a "swooping" effect.

Staccato creates a space between notes, even if they are played quickly. This space is essential to emphasize the individuality of each note and give the music a more articulate and defined character.

The fact of indicating to play "a little shorter" than the combined duration of the tied notes is therefore musically meaningless, and amounts to shortening the note, which is not staccato.

I think that if you do not have the solution, there is no point in trying to "hack" Musescore. For me the best thing to do would be to report this defect to the Musescore programmers so that they can correct it.

The problem comes from the Musescore software which does not apply staccato.

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• Dec 17, 2024 - 20:52

Your description ("a swooping effect") differs quite radically from some of the foremost sources in music:

> Staccato (Italian for "detached") is a form of musical articulation.
> In modern notation, it signifies a note of shortened duration,
> separated from the note that may follow by silence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staccato, citing Harvard Dictionary of Music, The Oxford Dictionary of Music (6th ed.), and The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians (second edition). No, Wikipedia is not a "foremost source"; the Harvard, Oxford, and New Grove Dictionaries are.

A staccato on the FIRST note of a tied pair is meaningless. On the second note, it makes perfect sense. ... Re-reading your post, I see that, indeed, you have said it yourself: "Staccato creates a space between notes". A tied pair of notes implies NO space between those notes.

MuseScore does apply staccato. It's just not how you have chosen to interpret staccato.

Any musical notation is entirely subjective. MuseScore (or any other computer notation software) has no choice but to select a particular way of interpreting a given symbol and going with that. Use a DAW (or an actual instrument) to get the note to play in the particular fashion you wish.

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• Dec 18, 2024 - 00:51

There is no first note of a tied pair, there is a note visually tied by musescore because it crosses a staff bar. Putting a staccato on the last virtual note of a tied note makes no musical sense, because the staccato is done at the attack of the note. Yes, the staccato creates a slight silence, not similar to a duration like a sixteenth or thirty-second note, but AFTER the note and not in the middle!

Musescore does not apply the staccato when the note is tied as shown in the attached file, (even if this tie is anecdotally outside a staff bar).

Attachment Size
extension link, staccato not done.mscz 23.88 KB

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• Dec 18, 2024 - 04:04

A "note visually tied by musescore because it crosses a staff bar" is two notes with a tie. Treated by MuseScore exactly the same as two notes tied inside a measure.

"[S]taccato is done at the attack of the note" is incorrect according to all 14 of my music teachers and according to the Harvard, Oxford, and New Grove Dictionaries of Music, as I described above. Accento and, to a lesser degree, marcato affect the attack, but not staccato.

"[T]he staccato creates a slight silence, not similar to a duration like a sixteenth or thirty-second note, but AFTER the note and not in the middle!" Are you saying that you want the staccato to hit and immediately fade ... and then come back??? You want the silence, the detachment, to occur in the MIDDLE of the note's duration??? No ... just ... no!

Sorry, I can't open the score (version issues) so I can't comment there.

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• Dec 18, 2024 - 01:16

you write: "A staccato marking on the last of a tied pair of notes is understandable - play somewhat shorter than the combined duration of the tied notes.". No, staccato is done on the attack of the note and is marked by a slight silence at the end. That is its principle. The problem here is that it simply does not work when the note is tied, which is abnormal. It is impossible to replace it with "a slight silence at the end" on the staff, especially since it would not be understood by those who read it.

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• Dec 17, 2024 - 21:27

It seems to me that the definition of "staccato" depends on several factors.

  1. Composer's intent. Although that is often shrouded in mystery.
  2. The instrument. A run of staccato16th notes at pp will be played one way on the piano. And much differently on a trumpet.
  3. The performer. Let's face it. The player gets to play the staccato as he sees fit. Regardless of any of the above points. Yes, the note will be played short. But it will be played as dictated by what the performer is trying to get across.

As a composer, all you can do is write down what you want, as best you can. The performer might even get close to what you want. Great.

Which brings us to the elephant in the room. Which is notation software. One part of that is what people feel about MuseScore # and MuseScore 4. Some prefer the playback controls of MU3. Some do not. I don't think either is capable of even a few of the many ways to playback staccato.
Sometimes I find that I have to play the part of the performer, and write something different from what a real player would need. So much so that I might have two scores for the same piece. I have always worked this way no matter the software.

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• Dec 18, 2024 - 00:56

I agree with you. But for that the staccato has to work! And it doesn't work when the note is tied. This is a problem that Musescore designers should fix. It doesn't seem that hard to me to code the fact that it applies even if the note is tied. How do you contact them?

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• Dec 18, 2024 - 05:37

Designers won't fix this, there's nothing to fix. As everyone here has told you, it's musically unsurpassable and antinomian to want to apply a tied note after a staccato.
In fact, what you need, and what will solve your request, is to use "Join selected measures" feature (menu "Tools" / Measures)
You are currently adapting the beginning of Bach's Toccata in Dm for flute.
toccata.jpg
This Adagio lasts three measures. There are so many fermatas that we're in fact in a free, unmeasured style, "senza misura".
The problem is that you're rewriting the rhythm, assigning values to the fermatas (and ornaments) - image below - and in so doing, everything is shifted. Hence the need for the program to apply ties (above the barlines) to preserve the note values.

1astaccata.jpg

Simply joining the measures solves the problem. There will be no more barlines (so no need for tie in the case shown) and therefore your staccatos, or other lourés etc. will always be on quarter notes, not tied eighth notes. See the image below - and the .mscz file: 1image jointe 2 liaisons.mscz

no barlines.jpg

NB: an alternative, preferable when you haven't yet started entering notes, is to choose a measure length large enough (in Measure Properties, say 15 or 20/4 instead of 4/4) to be able to write the music without these barlines.
Indeed, when it's written, with the "Join selected measures" feature, you quite often have to review the distribution of beams. It's minor on three measures, but on thirty or more, it's something else.

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