Octave transposing instruments and 'concert' score

• Feb 26, 2015 - 07:46

Some instruments are not usually transposed whether the score is a c/concert score (I guess some people will argue there is a difference between a c score and a concert score) or a tranposing score.

For example, the contrabass is usually notated with the bass clef (Not the ottava bassa bas clef like is default in musescore), and is written one octave higher than it sounds. But it is usually also always notated an octave higher, even in a non-transposing score. So for example to get the bass to play a C2, you would write a C3. And the 'concert score' or C score, will also usually have C3 notated, and use a regular bass clef.

At the moment I dont think this is possible in musescore, and have correct playback:

if you use an ordinary bass clef for contrabass, it will playback one octave too high, you can use staff properties to play transposition 1 octave lower, but then the notation is shifted up or down when you click the concert pitch button.

I think this could easily be fixed by having an otava bassa bass clef with out the little 8 (same for treble clef and an invisible 15ma treble clef for glockenspiel, which transposes two octaves etc, suddendly there are a lot of extra kinds of clef... ) . Unless there is some othe way to easily accomplish this?

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• Feb 26, 2015 - 14:21

It's not possible to do it exactly like you describe, but it is possible to have separate clefs for concert & transposed scores. So use the regular bass clef for the transposed score if the little "8" in the octave clef bothers you, but use the octave clef for the concert score. You don't need to do anything special to make that happen; whatever clef changes you make will affect only that mode.

FWIW, the tradition of using octave clefs for instruments that transpose at the octave is relatively new - perhaps the last century or so, becoming much more strongly entrenched when Finale made it the default way of doing this sort of thing. But it's pretty standard now.

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• Feb 27, 2015 - 06:21

Marc, i dont think it is actually all that common. most references say that the octave clef is actually the older way of doing it, concert scores in basically always use the convention that contrabass (piccolo, glock, guitar etc etc) uses ordinary bass clef but is notated one octave higer than sounding. I went to IMSLP and searched for modern string orchestra scores http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:For_strings&intersect=Modern, and picked 35 scores randomly and 5 of them used the octave clef, the rest used plain bass clef.

My point is that it is more common to use the normal clefs in these cases. The common case should be the easiest/default, you shouldn't have to fight with the software for conventional things. i.e. that the contrabass should have a bass clef in both concert and transposed scores, and in both should be written one octave higher than sounding

If you want to use this usual convention, and put a normal bass clef on the contrabass (or a normal cleff on piccolo etc) at the moment playback will be wrong, because it will be notated one octave higher.

and I will add that although finale does the octave clef, i could equally say that sibelius does not (and gets the playback pitch correct). Even though playback is not intended as the main feature of musescore, playing the right notes when they are notated following a widespread and very common convention is a pretty basic feature.

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• Feb 27, 2015 - 14:02

I'd say that using octave clefs didn't become *more* common than the alternative until Finale, but since Finale, it really is heading that way. So I wouldn't reject it out of hand.

But in any case, like I said, you *can* use the standard clefs for the transposed score and parts while maintaining the octave clef only for the concert score. Playback will be fine in all cases. So you can have the parts ands the transposed score look exactly like they traditionally have - with no octave clefs - and playback is fine.

Since concert scores are very rarely published, and there is virtually no standardization for how they are treated in the few cases where they are, having the octave clefs in the concert score (which is itself non-traditional) only should not be objectionable even if you prefer the more traditional notation for traditional cases. And if you do really want to print a concert score with no octave clef, you could change to bass clef (and transpose the octave with Ctrl+Up) just before printing, then change back after the print.

All that said, sure, someday, adding an option to specify the "concert pitch" behavior where octave-transposing instruments are concerned could be a ncie enhcancement. Some of us find we *prefer* our concert pitch scores to be truly concert pitch scores and to thus use octave clefs rather than hidden octave transpositions, so we would prefer the current behavior. But for people who prefer their "concert pitch" scores use these hidden transpositions rather than use octave clefs, such an option would address that.

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• Feb 27, 2015 - 16:49

BTW, you might want to see the discussion in this issue - #19105: Improved Concert Pitch mode. As you'll see, there is quite some tradeoff between the different approaches. An important advantage of just having true concert pitch with separate clefs for concert is that it gives you flexibiltiy for the *treble clef* instruments that transpose an octave or more (eg, guitar, bass clarinet, tenor & baritone saxophone). Some might prefer to see these in treble clef but transposed, other might prefer to see them in bass clef. Since the issue is "only" about the concert score, which is typically seen by no one but the composer while working on the composition, having it be easily readable was deemed more important than questions about whether the clef displays with a little "8" or not. But indeed, having that extra bit of control would be nice in addition.

EDIT: I've added some possible implementation notes to that issue. I do support this idea, and sorry if I came off as unsympathetic.

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• Mar 1, 2015 - 00:53

It depends on the kind of score I think, I think most 'study scores' tend to be in concert pitch (whether its sounding pitch or octave transposed can be a confusing mess), but from what I know conductor's scores would usually have everything transposed and written as the player would see it (I think this could still be a mess sometimes with some instruments like horns).
But what would be really good is a way to easily generate all options in musescore automatically.

Actually yes an 'improved' concert pitch mode could be really good: Part of the trouble is really that different publishers, composers, time periods, and personal taste all use different conventions. It is a little confusing sometimes, because you see a score that says "Score in C" which could, depending on who wrote it, everything written as sounds, or alternatively, everything written as sounds except some instruments, or a some scores follow different conventions on different instruments. Clefs make everything even worse: Every instrument has a set of 'normal' clefs the player reads, but the C score could use any clef appropriate to reduce ledger lines. eg some scores in C with tenor sax will use a mix of bass clef and treble clef, but the saxophone always reads the transposed part in treble clef.

I think really an 'improved' concert pitch mode should have at least 3 'configurable' modes: sounding (everything written as sounds), concert (everthing written in C, but octave transposing instruments transpose), and transposing (everything appears as it would be written for the player, i.e. transposed and in the normal clef). The trouble with these is, how do you handle clef changes when changing between modes automatically, this would depend on the instrument and your preference which would need to be the configurable part.

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• Oct 8, 2016 - 19:41

I agree this is a much-needed feature. For example, pretty much all film scores use regular clefs - not ottava bassa for double bass, for example. Still double bass plays a octave below the notation, by convention.

Creating film scores according to the current convention is a pain, and there's negative feedback on the non-conventional markings on the clefs.

And I agree with the follow-ups: a good compromise would be the possibility to configure the playing pitch and the clef separately, as MuseScore by default does not comply to the convention of film scoring.

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• Oct 8, 2016 - 20:03

You can do this already, all by yourself, just use the normal bass clef and set the instrument up for transposing by an octave.other than that this should be possible with the next version of MuseScore, which IIRC has the appropriate instrument definitions included. But even if not, as mentioned it is easy enough to be done by the user, and easy enough to make this a template.

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• Oct 8, 2016 - 21:52

Sorry for being unclear. My goal is to have:
1. Score in C
2. Correct playback of pitches when listening to the score

The guidelines for score in C:
- Non-transposing instruments (violin, viola, trombone, etc) are written in concert pitch.
- Instruments that transpose by octaves (bass, piccolo, contrabassoon, etc) are written in the *transposed* octave.
- Instruments that transpose by other intervals (clarinets, horns, etc) are written in concert pitch.

Any way to do this with MuseScore? A plugin? Something?

Currently the only options for display are "concert pitch" and non-"concert pitch" (transposed). Of these, "concert pitch" is closest to a score in C, but it displays the octave-transposing staves in the absolute played pitch - and not in the transposed octave as is needed for a score in C. For example, in score in C, double bass should sound an octave below what's written. And glockenspiel should sound two octaves above what's written. French horns should sound exactly as written. And all the staves have the same key signature in score in C - the same way as in "concert pitch" -mode.

Changing the instrument definitions only affects the transposed (non-"concert pitch" -mode). And using the transposed view mode means the score is no longer in C, as *all* the key signatures change according to the particular instrument transpositions. So for example, French horn changes key signature, as it's a transposing instrument.

The only (quite silly) workaround I can think of, is to work in concert pitch until everything is written, and then manually transpose all the octave-transposing staves (piccolo, glockenspiel, double bass etc.) to create a score in C. After that, the playback is incorrect, of course. Having a pre-built view option for a "Score in C" would be awesome, and/or a possibility to modify "concert pitch" -mode instrument playback transpositions.

Again, the goal is C score with the above guidelines, a common convention in current film scores. Any ideas?

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• Oct 8, 2016 - 23:43

'1. Score in C'
'French horns should sound exactly as written'
huh?

I think what you meant is that to have the score displayed in concert pitch mode at the same time not using octave clefs to transpose it lower/higher even after a manual modification of the play transposition in staff properties?

concertpitch2.jpg

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• Oct 9, 2016 - 08:01

I think what you meant is that to have the score displayed in concert pitch mode at the same time not using octave clefs to transpose it lower/higher even after a manual modification of the play transposition in staff properties?

Yes exactly - well summarized. Sorry for the vagueness on the horn example - 'should sound as written in concert pitch score' is what I meant.

So if I understand correctly, the octave clefs are the only way to get a score in C at the moment, right?

Thank you for the discussion and help, everybody!

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• Oct 9, 2016 - 20:05

It seems the majority of recent film scores follow the score in C -convention. If you want to study or work with film scores, it seems you need to be able to work with scores in C. And for scores in C, the octave-transposing instruments have the transposed pitch in the score - without the octave clefs.

I don't think anybody gets sued if there are octave clefs in the score :). But you will probably get frowned upon, if you are requested a score in C, but you deliver one not following the clef convention (of score in C).

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• Oct 9, 2016 - 20:25

Thanks for the response, nice to see things are going forward!

From the pull request, I got the impression that the change applies only to transposed view - did I understand it correctly?

If so, I'm under the impression it's still not possible to create/view a score in C in 2.0.4? To recap the score in C guidelines:
- Non-transposing instruments (violin, viola, trombone, etc) are written in concert pitch.
- Instruments that transpose by octaves (bass, piccolo, contrabassoon, etc) are written in the *transposed* octave.
- Instruments that transpose by other intervals (clarinets, horns, etc) are written in concert pitch.

Is this possible to do in 2.0.4 - while still hearing the real played pitches on playback? Thanks for your patience :) !

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• Oct 10, 2016 - 06:24

Question: Is there a case where ambiguities are likely or even possible? In other words if you are not sure about the score you are reading, can't you figure out the octave in which the instruments in question are playing from the musical text and context and tradition (in the case of the Contrabass tradition is enough by itself)?

I don't see any problem with just routinely using the little 8s or 15s where appropriate no matter which type of score you are dealing with? Do they do any harm in any way? That way you are unambiguous at any rate.

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• Nov 16, 2016 - 18:29

This is a very reasonable request because there is no tenor clef with the otava notation on it. When you want to write for the double bass with the tenor clef, it cannot be done without making some changes.

Muse score already give you the ability to make the clefs the way you want them. If you right click on the staff somewhere a speed menu will show up. Click "Staff Properties..." and a dialog box will show up. The very bottom or next line up from the bottom will say "Play transposition." To the right of that it will be a drop down that says "0 Perfect Unison." To the right of that it says "+ octave" and then "0" in a box with an up and down arrow in it. Click the up so a "1" appears in it. Next make sure the dot next to "Down" is selected to the right of that (the dot can only be next to "up" or "down"). Click "OK" Make sure the score is set to "Concert Pitch" (it will look pressed in) and make sure you have a bass clef with the 8 under it. Click "Concert Pitch" so it does not look pressed in and change the clef to the regular Bass Clef and everything you have asked for will be done. If you prefer you can change the clef in concert pitch to the regular bass clef so you can see that the G at the bottom of the staff sounds to be under the 3rd ledger line down, but I'm comfortable transposing this in my mind and it does not work with the Tenor Clef due to the lack of the symbol with the 8 under it.

Here's the link to one of my works that I composed in that manner. https://musescore.com/user/6105546/scores/2466061

I include this so you can bring up a dialog box for the double bass.

You can do the same thing with piccolos and glockenspiels but us the appropriate number of staffs down rather than up.

I would rather have MuseScore default to this setup for all instruments like it does for all non-octave transposing instruments and the Contrabassoon.

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• Nov 16, 2016 - 18:37

That's a very good point about tenor clef. So, that makes one objectively good reason for the change, which seals the deal as far as I am concerned, for contrabass anyhow.

The case for other instruments is less clear, since there really is much more established convention for the octave clefs, and it's not common to need to change clefs for most of those instruments either.

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