Mellow grand piano for MuseScore 2

• Apr 10, 2015 - 11:02

I have today tweaked the FluidR3 piano to provide a mellower version for those who are finding the one designed by Frank Wen is too bright.

It is now in beta and is available from the public area of my Google Drive......
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7cZM0RQwkwSZFBiRjh6SlhJSFU&authuser=0

The intention is to eventually merge this with the main MuseScore2 default soundfont.

While it is still in beta it will remain a separate entity.

Please let me know of any issues that may need addressing here.

Comments

• Apr 10, 2015 - 16:33

It's currently louder overall, right? I guess it would have to be knocked down again to mix well with the other sounds? Doesn't seem to be responding to the mixer control, but maybe that's a more general issue, not specific to that soundfont.

Anyhow, I do like it, but then I didn't dislike the original. So I guess I can say, I don't think you went too far. Hard to say if it's going to satisfy people not as happy with the original or if it will feel like it didn't go far enough.

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• Apr 10, 2015 - 23:18

First off, I give much credit to you, ChurchOrganist - tenaciously striving to meld a unified soundfont containing acceptable instrument sounds suitable for solo, and ensemble, playing.
I'm primarily a guitar soloist, so when it comes to soundfonts, I'm easily satisfied, believing the true power of music resides in the actual live performance.

BUT...

Having said that, I realize that MuseScorers keep pushing the playback envelope in order to hear their scores rendered more realistically. Since I am also interested in keyboard, I have been following the piano soundfont discussions and have downloaded the MellowYamahaGrand.sf2 soundfont.

On my end, using Windows7 with a decent 4.1 surround, I play the same test file to compare different piano fonts. I set the playback control in MuseScore to loop, and then change piano soundfonts 'on the fly' at each repeat. No volume settings or effects are changed during this process.

The piano soundfonts I have are the 6 contained in TimGM6mb, the 6 contained in FluidR3 (which includes the Yamaha Grand), and the MellowYamahaGrand.

So... as I hear it, for solo piano, playing the attached file:
1. I think the volume on the MellowYamahaGrand.sf2 is set higher than all the others. Also, the low bass notes do seem 'muffled'.
2. Also, I think TimGM6mb's "Piano 3" sounds the worst - especially at the single note passage starting at measure 7 where I hear a slight distortion.
3. IMHO, FluidR3's Yamaha Grand Piano is best overall - might just be this example, though.
My test file is attached. Play it back looped, and change pianos 'on the fly'.

In fact, anyone can put in a section break and add to it. Just re-name the file, incrementing the number in the file name. Then post the score here with your comments about any soundfont issue. This way, we'll all be on the same page.

Regards.

Attachment Size
Piano soundfont check 1.mscz 13.21 KB

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• Apr 11, 2015 - 00:40

Thanks for the input so far.

Having now tried the soundfont inside MuseScore it is obvious that it is much too loud.

It seems that the latest version of Viena is attenuating the actual volume somehow!

That will be very easily addressed in the morning.

Regarding the "muffled" quality of the bass - I'm afraid that is a casualty of the processing done to the samples, which has been rather rough and ready - the same EQ pattern being applied to all the samples - in a real instrument there would undoubtedly be a louder high frequency band component in the bass end vibrating strings, and maybe this is something we could look at later on.

I don't know how the samples were recorded or processed originally, but they were extremely lacking in low end frequency, which, to me, suggests they were recorded with inferior recording equipment.

Basically we have a good starting point, and once we have got the volume down to manageable levels we can then start to look at ways of improving the timbre of the low end.

Expect version 0.1 tomorrow morning :)

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• Apr 11, 2015 - 16:27

I very much appreciate your effort and attention to these issues!

Easier to compare now that the volumes match. I'd say maybe this *did* go too far in my opinion; too little high frequency sound for my personal taste. When I flip back and forth, I am always a little disappointed by what I hear - going from the original to mellow, I miss the punch, then when switch from mellow to original, I miss the warmth.

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• Apr 11, 2015 - 19:00

Yes the lack of high frequency components is noticeable particularly in the lower end of the range.

Given the ease with which this can be done it may be interseting to do yet another version with the brilliance left in and simply the bass frequencies boosted.

If we can provide a range of piano sounds, then hopefully there will be something for everyone :)

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• Apr 12, 2015 - 02:31

Honestly, I would ask that you put fixing tuning issues ahead of this project, in particular the notes in the violin and alto sax that have previously been brought to your attention.

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• Apr 12, 2015 - 08:44

Zack, I have explained why not much can be done for the tuning issues.

The alto sax bends many of the notes upwards from a point approximately a quarter tone flat to pitch.

I have already tweaked the violin to improve the tuning issues.

Both sets of samples have vibrato on them which makes it well nigh impossible to set up a groundwork to tune from as the ptiches are shifting around - so we have to rely on the internal tuning method of Viena which is also obviously getting confused.

Consequently new samples need to be sourced and used without vibrato, a process which is much longer and more time consuming than tweaking the EQ on a set of samples which has had loop points defined already.

When I have finished the new clarinet (of which I still have half an octave of loop points to find in the standard range) I can start on the sax.

As for the violin the tweaks I already implemented seem to have solved the problem as no-one has said otherwise.

You have downloaded and checked the latest version?

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• Apr 12, 2015 - 15:52

The one that fixes an unspecified alto sax range issue? Yes. All I know is that a test file I uploaded a while ago called "Out Of Tune.mscz" still sounds out of tune with FluidR3Mono_GM2-106. In particular, the second A above Middle C in the violin is (still) something like fifteen cents flat. So, no, I think those tweaks did not solve the problem. It's still possible that further tweaks could improve it without having to start from scratch.

This is not to say that I think these projects with replacing the clarinet and altering the piano are a waste of time. I'll certainly be very excited to hear the new clarinet sound. I just personally see the current piano as "good enough," and tuning issues as "not good enough."

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• Apr 12, 2015 - 16:57

The reason it is still sounding out of tune is because that particular violin sample begins flat then the player adjusts the tuning, consequently whatever you do with it it will sound out of tune one way or the other.

Another candidate for eventual sample replacement I think.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact the actual sample played for A5 is B5, and the time stretching has accentuated the slide.

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• Apr 16, 2015 - 22:12

Feedback to the contrary. I'm seriously sorry to have to do this, but no, I could hardly be less happy with it. I know people were saying the current one sounds like a harpsichord to them (which I think is nuts), but this honestly sounds like a vibraphone to me. It's absolutely terrible for playing back piano scores. It's like the piano is playing at the bottom of a well—not only is all the brightness gone, but all the richness as well, replaced by some kind of hollow booming. This is worse even than TimGM6mb's Piano 1—at least that was recognizably a piano. This one really does sound more like a vibraphone.

I would ask you to please, please, make only the slightest tweaks to the original sound, but if you really want to make such an extreme change, is it possible to "merge it with the main default soundfont for MuseScore 2" as part of the list of sounds, without replacing the current "Yamaha Grand Piano"?

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• Apr 16, 2015 - 23:10

The plan was always to merge it in a separate bank as an addition to the soundfont, not a replacement for the existing piano.

I'm a little puzzled about the way it is sounding on your sound system.

Mine is set up pretty flat so that what I'm hearing is what the samples truly sound like, and I'm wondering if the bass is boosted on your system as the raw samples are distinctly lacking bass component frequencies on my system, and needed the bass end boosting to get them to sound anything like.

Certainly the new piano does not sound like a vibraphone on my system, but more like my Yamaha P200 digital piano when played through my Studiomaster monitor.

Anyway rest assured that this will be an addition to the soundfont not a replacement.

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• Apr 17, 2015 - 00:50

I'm listening through a no-name pair of $5 earbuds. But I just tried playing through my laptop speakers (which I normally don't do), and it turns out that like that the "mellow" piano sounds fine, and maybe actually a little nicer. Perhaps it could be added under a name like "Small-Speaker Optimized Piano"? Anyway, as long as the current default piano remains, I have no reason to complain. Thank you!

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• Apr 16, 2015 - 23:27

Well, I wouldn't go that far - it doesn't like a vibraphone any more than the original sounds like a harpsichord. But I would agree, it is quite muffled and lacking in high end. At least, it does when I listen through headphones with pretty good frequency response. It's a *very* big difference, and overall feels noticeably worse. On the other hand, when I listen through my computer speakers - which, like most computer computer speakers, are sorely lacking in low end (although mine are purported to be better than average at least) - there isn't as much noticeable difference, but what difference I do hear sounds like an improvement indeed.

For people accustomed to listening through computer speakers only and that is why they think of the original as being too bright, I think they will probably hear this as an improvement. For people accustomed to listening through something better, I think even if they might wish for more low end than was provided in the original Yamaha Grand Piano, this is going to still seem like it went too far, and they'll wish there was something between these extremes.

So I fear that perceptions of this soundfont will depend very heavily on the quality of the speakers / headphones you use, and we'll have a very hard time getting any sort of consensus, even putting aside any subjective differences in what kind of sounds we prefer.

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