trill and turn implementations

Good job! They sound pretty decent, certainly much better than nothing! These could be the default trills and more types could be selectable from the inspector along the lines of these examples from Wikipedia.

I think the trills are fine for speed, perhaps slightly too fast but only very slightly. I think the main problem with the trills is that you try to slow them down part way through. In my view *mimes opening can of worms* this should only happen if there is another form of notation present, such as a Fermata, and the correct way to do this would be through tempo rather than sub-note length.

Your solution was some kind of compromise involving changing from straight demisemiquavers to other note durations, and even tuplets, part way through.

In my opinion it should simply be:

And (only) when there is a Fermata:

So it seems to me that you actually made life a bit more difficult for yourself than you needed to. Perhaps the 2nd example could be implemented using the same as-yet-to-be-created algorithm as ritardando and rallentando (rit. and rall.).

Nice work!

I just listened to the midi file and looked at the score (rather than building your branch of MuseScore). So I didn't get a chance to test how the trills perform at different tempos. Are they always 32nd notes or does the note length change depending on the tempo?

At a super fast tempo 32nd notes would be too fast for a trill. For example if the computer plays a trill faster than is humanly possible on an acoustic instrument, then it is too fast.

At super slow tempos 32nd notes may even be too slow for a trill. For example if the computer plays a trill so slowly that it no longer sounds like a trill, then it is too slow.

That is a really nice work....
also I would add some comment to reflect further
1. what about begining trills also slower than go faster than go slower again
2. i think accelerando/rall of a trill depends on type of movement and that can't be guessed (can it ?) by a computer
3. what about trill that aren't "half step" above ? (like a whole step, or next scale note?)
3 bis . What about trill with an alteration above ? (to precise accidental of the note)
4. : what about the order : which note begin the said "real" one, or the "orenemental" one ? (my little experience showed me it depends from which note you come, and which musical period it is)

I would like this as a facultative plug in .... not as all ornemnets played if we can't select "second" note played and which note is first...

But that is right now a great job, just some comment to improve / reflect on it ;)

I think this file I'm attaching covers all the ornaments that do not playback in MuseScore (except of the regular pralls and mordents which have been fixed in 2.0). In every staffline there is the ornament adjusted over the note in the first measure and the actual playback of the ornament in the next measure. Moreover, there should be symbols of trills and gruppetos with accidentals above them which should also playback correctly.

The heroic effort gone into this endeavour is surely to praise; however I am far from sure that any automatic ornament realisation has any real usefulness, in particular for pre-classic music.

I am aware that my view is perhaps heterodox and I am not specifically referring to Jim implementation, but to the mere concept of automatic ornament realisation. I have already expressed elsewhere my main concern, but there are other, in a very rough order of importance.

1) Even limiting ourselves to, for instance, early XVIII c. music and to just the trill, there is no such a think as the "correct trill". Trill is quite different according it has a two-note or a one-note resolution; the trill in an Allemande is not the same as the trill in a Sarabande or a Courante, and so on (and this without even entering into specific cultural differences, like French music versus Italian music...).

2) Only a subset of the used ornaments is recognised by MuseScore, by SMuFL or, I believe, by any general notation programme. I'm speaking of fairly widely used ornaments: for instance, many of the ornaments used by French Baroque music are not recognized and are unlike to be in any non-specialized software in any near future. On the other hand, the set seemingly familiar to notation programmes include ornaments which I have never met in decades of Baroque and Renaissance music playing, like for instance many of the prall variants.

3) Written ornaments are only a subset of the ornaments actually played: for instance, not rarely sources omit cadential trills, but they *have* to be played nevertheless.

4) Ornaments are only one aspect of 'ornamentation': inegalité, passing notes, diminutions, etc... are, each in its capacity and context, an integral part of the execution. Some are, by their very nature, left to the taste of the player, but some, like inegalité, are fairly predictable (but again, very difficult to render algorithmically).

5) On the technical side, ornament notes tend to be fast and, in many occasions, (almost) only the attack part of the sample is played, resulting in an unnatural sound and in noticeably lower volume in any non-keyboard instrument.

All in all, the result of any automatic ornament realisation is so distant from the reality of any acceptable 'real' performance that, at least in my opinion, its usefulness turns out to be quite limited.

Thanks,

M.

Hi Jim,

A few comments about your pioneer implementation of ornament realisation which finally ended up into the main code. I'll refer specifically to the Baroque style and I'll try not to let my ideas on automatic ornament realisation to influence my comments...

Of course, there inevitably is a part of personal taste in these areas; I'm trying to summarize some common practices from my personal experience and, above all, from the performances of reputed players I appreciate.

1) Trills 1 appoggiatura: the trills should begin with an audible appoggiatura on the superior note; roughly speaking it could take from approx. just the time of one upper-lower note alternation (for lively tempos) to approx. one half of the note (for slow tempo), reducing the 'trilled' part accordingly.

2) Trills 2 'trilled' part: your implementation links the trilling speed to the tempo speed. In my experience the trilling speed is almost independent from the tempo: with faster tempos and shorter notes, there will be less alternations and vice versa with slower tempos and longer notes. Currently, your 'fast' trills sound to me somewhat too fast and the 'slow' trills way too slow. Something in between?

3) Trills 3 resolution: each trill should have a resolution, either of one note or of two notes; two-note resolutions are tricky and involve a third note. They may be required if a pair of appoggiaturas are notated at the end of the trill, but let's leave it for another occasion.

The main characteristic of the one-note resolution is the break between the trilled part and the resolution note. The resolution note may be notated explicitly (for instance in the trilled dotted crochet + quaver pattern) or not, but it should always be there in the playback; if not notated, it will be the same note as the note following the trill and may take more or less 1/4 to 1/8 of the trilled note.

Before the resolution note, there should be an audible silence; in the case of the pattern quoted above, the silence may take almost the whole dot.

4) Mordents and similar: it seems to me they are also realised with a speed which depends on tempo; again, this does not match actual performances: the quick ones sound fine, but the slow ones are way too slow.

5) Cross: first of all, I'm very happy you thought about it! Unfortunately it is a rather tricky ornament.

5a) In cadential positions and on the dotted note + short note pattern, it is a 'long' ornament, in practice the same thing as a trill (with all its components: appoggiatura, trill, break, resolution)

5b) In other position, it is a 'short' ornament, like a 'doubled' mordent with an initial upper note or on occasions just a regular mordent. The current realisation which alternates the main note with the note below is totally new to me.

6) Augmented seconds in some lower note ornaments: when the main note is sharpened (or un-flattened), it may happen to (temporarily) be an augmented second above the note below according to the key signature. If the ornament requires the note below, this should be raised to avoid the 'wrong' interval. Note that this is independent from any (extra) accidental existing or lacking in the previous notes.

7) Rhythmic patterns: by their very nature, ornaments are not measured. So, please do not obtain the length of their notes by diving the main note (or the beat) by a power of 2. Use as a base a prime number as 13, 21, 111, even an irrational number (PI, e, ...), whatever you like, but not a power of 2! Possibly, even better may be the use of a fixed absolute duration, with small variations for different tempos if you want.

Unless I forgot something, I believe these to be the most important points; appoggiatura duration is a too vexata qæstio and the other ornaments are too rare or too vague to be worth lucubrating on.

Thanks,

M.

Congratulations on the successful PR, Jim!

I am personally very happy with your implementation of the ornaments and the glissando. I see no reason why a lack of standardised definitions should prohibit MuseScore from making some attempt at playback based on popular, straightforward interpretations. Clearly many people will have their own idea about how things should sound, but they are free free to disable it or customise using hidden notes, etc. If you want to add a few more styles, or create a little "how-to" so that others can create some styles, I'm sure that would be very much appreciated but well beyond the call of duty. I think you have chosen very sensible defaults that should be fine for most users, most of the time.

Thank you for your hard work!

I finally downloaded a new nightly build, and this is simply fantastic! But something pretty big is still missing. Marc Sabatella mentioned it above (https://musescore.org/en/node/56281#comment-279831): "Also, don't forget the trills on the Lines palette."

Hi Jim,

I just wanted to let you know about an issue: #66781: Trill stops after first part of tied note Thanks again for all your good work.