help needed: two musical signs
Hello!
I would like to ask for the help of the forum to identify two musical signs and how to reproduce them in musescore. First I have to say that I don't have any musical education, but nevertheless I am interested in classical music and own a few autographs which I would like to digitise with musescore. Now I came across the following two signs in my scores and would like to know what they are and how I can build them in my musescore sheet.
The first picture shows four half notes in one bar, two of them are connected with an "equal sign". What does this doubled line mean?
The second picture shows an "underlined 1" in a bar. There are rests in the bars before and after this bar and in the composition at a later point there is also an "underlined 2" in a bar. What does this underlined number mean?
Sorry for this kind of stupid questions, but as I mentioned I just listen to music and cannot even play an instrument.
Best,
Tobias
Comments
I'm not sure what you are questioning. The only "signs" I see in your first example are tremolo signs, and I have no idea what you are referring to in the 2nd example. At least mention which bar you are referencing.
For #1, if you are talking about the pairs of parallel diagonal lines, see the Handbook under "Tremolo".
For #2, I guess that is a form of multimeasure rest, although use of that symbol for a single measure would be very non-standard. See "Measure rests" in the Handbook.
I guess this means "1 bar rest". This looks like traditional manuscript, so in the previous bar the last sign, which looks like a couple of brush strokes, is I think a crotchet rest the way I was taught to write it, as the reverse of a quaver rest. But if this doesn't match with the rest of the score I might be totally wrong.
In reply to I guess this means "1 bar by Imaginatorium
"1 bar rest" - yes.
In reply to "1 bar rest" - yes. by xavierjazz
Thanks for your answers, that all sounds very good and reasonable and I will include that to my musescore. By the way, the two scores date from around 1910, so yes, it can be old-fashioned music writing.
Thanks!
Tobias
In reply to Thanks for your answers, that by violinconcerto
I assume you've already noticed the stems are on the wrong side of the notehead for the downstem notes. That is not standard today and as far as I know, was not standard in 1910 either; it's just wrong :-). So I wouldn't be inclined to try too hard to copy everything you see in this particular edition, and instead, focus on doing things correctly.
Well, the two hints were wonderful and I could go on in digitising the score. Now I came another point with two signs I don't know. The added picture shows both signs:
1.) Is in the upper red circle. There is an "8" next to a note (which surely means that is has to be played an octave below or above, but what does it mean exactly and how to include in musescore?). And from that note there is some kind of "hook" (a horizontal line with a small hook at the end). What does it mean?
2) Is in the lower red circle. The "oblique double line with the two spots". Is that again an old fashioned rest sign?
Thanks and best again,
Tobias
In reply to Well, the two hints were by violinconcerto
OK, I already found the 1), it was "8va".
What about the second "red circle"?
Best,
Tobias
In reply to Well, the two hints were by violinconcerto
the 2md I think is a measure repeat, alt least looks very similar, check the repeats amd jumps palette
In reply to the 2md I think is a measure by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks for your answer! I already found the measure repeat as well, but that effects the whole bar. But in my score it is used like a rest.
One other short question: I included the 8vs to the bar and received an "8" with an enormous font size. I went to style -> text -> ottava and changed the font size, but nothing happened. So where can I change the font size for "8va"?
Best,
Tobias
In reply to Thanks for your answer! I by violinconcerto
The standard symbol for ottava does indeed have a quite large 8 in a special font; that's normal/correct. In MuseScore, you get this is you add the line via double click. If you add via drag & drop, you get a smaller / plain 8. You can also convert from the standard large stylized 8 to the smaller plain 8 by right clicking the line and choosing Line Properties, then replacing the text with just "8" instead of the symbol markup that is there by default when adding via double click.
The other symbol appears to be a measure repeat symbol being misused to suggest you should repeat the previous beat. At least, that's how it looks from the context. You canm add such symbols from the Symbols palette (press "Z"), but they aren't really standard.
Your double-slash with dots symbol appears to be used here - incorrectly - to indicate the repeat of a group of notes rather than the repeat of a measure. You can get it to look this way - if you insist - by creating four measures of one beat each and hiding the barlines but I wouldn't recommend it unless your target audience is 1910 musicians.
In reply to Your double-slash with dots by underquark
Thanks for all your hints, it worked fine with the "8" of the ottava and for your opinions about my misused repeat pattern! I changed everything successfully in my score!
Best,
Tobias
In reply to Thanks for all your hints, it by violinconcerto
This repeat sign is not "misused" (nor "nonstandard" nor "incorrect"). It's very standard for manuscript to do anything to reduce excessive writing, and it is actually easier to read: in printing the two copies would be identical, and easy to recognise as such, but in manuscript they would always be slightly different, making more work for the reader. (And I just checked, and this *exactly* matches Example 12-3 in Gardner Read's book.)
In reply to This repeat sign is not by Imaginatorium
Really? With the dots? The more standard symbol would have just the two slashes (indicating sixteenth notes). The symbol used here is virtually exclusively used to indicate a two-measure repeat today. The symbols look similar but are definitely not the same.
Indeed, though, different editors have done things differently at different points in history, so perhaps there was a time when this use of the measure repeat symbol as a substitute for the beat repeat symbol was common. I definitely would not recommend its use today, though, as musicians will pretty much universally see that as a two measure repeat symbol. They'll figure it out eventually form context as I did, but better to use the more common symbol.
In reply to Really? With the dots? The by Marc Sabatella
Yes, really, the symbol is an exact match. But in fact Gardner Read says to use this for a repeated beat of different length notes (dum-diddy); he also shows sloping single, double, triple lines for repeated quaver* groups. But I don't think I remember meeting these undotted versions... I am English, and there are probably differences in manuscript practice in particular across the Atlantic; for example I learnt not to try to copy a printed crotchet rest, but always to write the reversed quaver sign, and was amazed to find people in Japan drawing these elaborate squiggly things.
(* This stuff is so long to write out in words. Why didn't the Germans invent a logarithmic scale, like the DIN film speeds?)
But there are two issues here: whether marks are to be expected in manuscript from 1910 or later, and whether it is good practice to use them with Musescore. I think in general that in print it is usually better not to use repetition marks, and if you are transcribing from manuscript you should use normal printed conventions, not copy the exact sequence of marks on the original.
Hello!
I came across another question, which is not on a specific sign or pattern in my original score, but a question about the understanding of a whole measure. In my original score I found a measure in which the composer made some writings that does not fit into the correct time signature, which is 3/4. Due to the fact that he made the "error" twice I have the feeling that I made something wrong (which is very likely, because I do not know much about music). So I would be again grateful if you could help me and tell me how to understand the two examples below:
The time signature is 3/4 and in both original measures there is some kind of triplet, but that doesn't fit with the rests, etc. I also attached my realisations in musescore for both measures.
What do you think?
Thanks and best,
Tobias
In reply to Hello! I came across another by violinconcerto
I'd rather make that problem1 measure 4/4
2nd looks OK to me
In reply to I'd rather make that problem1 by Jojo-Schmitz
Both measures are 3/4! "Problem1" is the 1st clarinet and "problem2" is the viola from the string section and both bars are from the measure (or how to say that in English), i.e. they are played at the same time. That is why I think that I made something wrong.
Best,
Tobias
In reply to Both measures are 3/4! by violinconcerto
Oh, in that case I'd agree with both your realisations.
In reply to Oh, in that case I'd agree by Jojo-Schmitz
I think this makes better sense: 1-2.jpg
Edit: And, for the 8va above, judging by that careful penning, the little circle may indicate a violin/viola soloist’s harmonic.
In reply to I think this makes better by HenJor
Thanks Henjor, for your thoughts! I will check your suggestion with the score!
One question about your edit: What do you mean with "indicate a violin soloist's harmonic"? And how is that typed into musescore?
Best,
Tobias
In reply to Thanks Henjor, for your by violinconcerto
The snippet looks like violin/viola solo (above string section), and the little circle suggests harmonic (natural or artificial), but it should be examined by an instrumentalist.
In MuseScore, select the note in score, hit Z for master symbols palette, type ‘harmonic’ in search field, double-click rightmost little circle, it snaps on top of note in score. Double-click harmonic circle in score, position with [Ctrl + arrow] finer with [arrow].
In reply to The snippet looks like by HenJor
Thanks, found it and included the "harmonic circle".
And you are right, I am typing in a violin concerto and there are other ottava with a "8" and a following "vo". I suggested that this all belongs together indicating the following ottava. But now that you mentioned that harmonic circle, what do you think does the following mean?
Best,
Tobias
In reply to Thanks, found it and included by violinconcerto
Aha, that settles it: This “8vo - - -” differs from first “8o ———” (and ‘8va’) enough to outweigh harmonics. Both are ottava signs, but I would eye these differences carefully and not rule out anything possibly conceived for dramatic/clever/idiomatic effect in a concertante part. Not meaning this piece factually, but a similar phrase (key thing being harmonic on that short note not continued by the following one) could hint at a swift shift in hand position as a necessary preparation for the next phrase.
In reply to Aha, that settles it: This by HenJor
Thanks again for your comment, and it looks like to know what to expect from score like the one in front of me. I think now I really came across some harmonics. See the picture below. I would expect the two circles next to the "2" are harmonics, the "2" indicate a duplet, but what is the diamant shaped thing on the one note?
Best,
Tobias
In reply to Thanks again for your by violinconcerto
“2” is no duplet. With only glimpses of notational personality, it may more probably indicate finger, or even string. (Looks like violin.) But the others are harmonics: ring for natural, romb for artificial. You should look them up, especially artificials, how they may be notated on paper and what may differ in MuseScore, and check against score harmony before deciding.
In reply to “2” is no duplet. With only by HenJor
Thanks again for the clarification! I tried to include your hints as good as I can. I will finally give the score to a professional violinist to proofread what I have written.
And I really thought I had asked all difficulties, but then I step forward to the next measure and there it is - my next problem:
Its from the solo violin part, time signature 4/4. the triple stops seems to be clear, but then there comes something like a double stop with a rest, and also above a dotted eighth with a sixteenth note and quarter note. If I try to type that into musescore it obviously fails, so where is the trick? (And this kind of pattern comes in the next measures again and again, so this is no mistake)
Thanks and sorry for my many questions.
Tobias
In reply to Thanks again for the by violinconcerto
OK, here is the difference between notation so called and tabulature: Notation shows how something should sound (rather: be perceived), tabulature shows what to do to get there. Triple and quadruple stops in modern time has that gap widened because of the violin’s curved bridge versus the modern bow’s wooden part shifting to concave against the hair, allowing for simultaneous contact with fewer strings than before. Transcribe exactly as written, using voices. Any instrumentalist will know what to do.
[Going offline now for several days.]
In reply to Thanks again for the by violinconcerto
Normally the violin (like the flute, trumpet, etcetc) is a single "voice". But here you will have to use the "voice" function of Musescore to write the bottom two notes + rest as one voice, and the upper notes (with a slightly different rhythm) as another voice. (This is a result of the -very reasonable- way Musescore treats voices; it's also the typical first place you get Totally Stuck when starting to enter keyboard music with Musescore, because one doesn't normally think of these as separate "voices".)
Hello again,
I nearly finished to type in the autograph into musescore and only some tiny questions remain. One of these questions is about the following sign (see photo): I first thought that this is a double sharp, but later in the score the double sharps look different just like an "x". This one is an x with dots in every angle of the x. What is that sign (and how to put that into musescore)?
Thanks and best,
Tobias
In reply to Hello again, I nearly by violinconcerto
From the context, it seems it is indeed just a quirky-looking double sharp.
In reply to Hello again, I nearly by violinconcerto
From the context, it seems it is indeed just a quirky-looking double sharp.