Is there a musical term for the "and" positions in a bar?
In 4/4 time counting a bar like this "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and", playing notes "on the beat" is clearly understood. Are the "and" positions referred to as "off the beat" or could such a term mean any position that is not "on the beat"? Is there a musical term for the "and" positions?
Comments
As I use the terms (that may not be universal though), "off the beat" would mean "any where that is not on the beat" as you suggest. I would refer to the "and" as "the off-beat", or possibly "the half-beat". If necessary I might extend this last usage and hope that others would understand what I mean if a I refer to "the one-third-of-a-beat" or "the two-third-of-a-beat" or "the three-third-of-a-beat" when I want to identify which part of a divided compound beat I was referring to. But I don't often want to do that.
In reply to As I use the terms (that may… by SteveBlower
I like "the half-beat".
If the context is music with mostly eighth notes as the shortest value, "the off beats" is clear enough. If there are also sixteenth, then "the 'ands'" works, even if it probably doesn't translate to other language well.
In reply to If the context is music with… by Marc Sabatella
The melody is mainly on the crotchet beats, the bass is minims and crotchets and the "fill in" is on the "and" counts. There are no 1/16 notes.
In the end I put some detail in a score guide after the score to say that they are "half a beat after the previous note". A bit clunky but they weren't always on the "and".
https://musescore.com/user/28842914/scores/6254591
In reply to If the context is music with… by Marc Sabatella
I think that "the off beats" would be a better description than my clunky wording but it's not quite always the case.
In reply to If the context is music with… by Marc Sabatella
At least for German I've learned as expression for counting sixteenths similar to "the 'ands" the term "unde", also not really translatable ;-).
They're the ands.
In reply to They're the ands. by xavierjazz
I can make a trivial change so that they are always the "and" beats.
In reply to I can make a trivial change… by yonah_ag
"and" is usually used for the second half of the beat. There is no other "and" usage here
for example, in Quarter-note based count: "and" is always the second eighth note of a(ny) beat. 1, &; 2, &; 3, &; 4, &
Different vowels are used to show the first and second parts of sixteenth notes.
For example: 1, e, &, a; 2, e, &, a; 3, e, &, a; 4, e, &, a;
To describe in written:
Terms like "half of the beat", "quarter of the beat" mix with other note values.
Instead: Terms such as "first sixteenth note of the second beat", "second eighth note of the third beat" can be used.
In reply to "and" is usually used for… by Ziya Mete Demircan
The 4th beat of bar 24 is a bit of an exception so I can't say, "all the stemless notes are on the 'and' " – but perhaps it's so obvious where the stemless notes fall that it really needs no explanation.
In reply to The 4th beat of bar 24 is a… by yonah_ag
Here's is something totally unimportant, but has been in the back of my mind since this question was asked. The question was about a musical term for "and." I've been wondering what the expected answer would be. I wonder if the OP was hoping for some Latin or Italian word. My guess is that if there is such a term, that it would be some word meaning "and", or "off", or "plus". I'm not surprised there doesn't appear to be such a term. How, for one thing, would it apply to compound meter? To my rather simple mind such terms were used when I was learning to read music and not used later. yonah_ag, I think you may be right. People able to play this piece can probably figure it out. Just thinking out loud.
In reply to Here's is something totally… by bobjp
Yes, I was wondering whether there was a precise musical term. I'm still learning musical terms and "compound meter" is another new one for me to look up.
It is a simple piece with a pretty standard fingerpicking style so I'm sure you are right about figuring it out. In any case the score has audio!
If you please, Greek also provides the [arsis/thesis] pair, but people have apparently been known to have used these terms at variance throughout the centuries with "lifting" and "setting down" respectively. For instance, Fux derived his usage of thesis for downbeat and arsis for upbeat from the raising and lowering of the arm rather than other theorists using thesis for upbeat and arsis for downbeat of the voice, but that was a long time ago, I presume.
In reply to If you please, Greek also… by worldwideweary
Correct, but that's for the beat "2" when in 2/4 (e.g.), not the"and" of |1 and 2 and|
In reply to Correct, but that's for the… by frfancha
Oh, right. Although, imo, it makes sense to liberally apply arsis to ["and"] as 'lift', and thesis to beats as 'set'.
In reply to Oh, right. Although, imo, it… by worldwideweary
Makes sense to me too, now that I know what these terms mean. I had already applied arsis to the "ands" (by reducing midi velocity) because it sounded right.
Found this as well which has a useful picture:
https://petersenvoicestudio.com/2015/05/27/understanding-arsis-and-thes…
I might get a copy of the book that he recommends.
Edit: On the other hand, it's quite expensive!
In reply to Makes sense to me too, now… by yonah_ag
If you are really interested in the subject, you might also take a look at "The Shaping of Musical Elements" by Armand Russell and Allen Trubitt (Shirmer, 1992). The first volume deals (among other things) with the analysis of melody in terms of the interaction of dynamic, agogic and metric accents, where dynamic accents are the result of instructions in notation to increase volume, agogic accents are the result of arsis and thesis based on note durations and metric accents are the result of patterns of expectation developed as a result of regularities in dynamic and agogic accents.
In reply to If you are *really"… by SteveBlower
Does look interesting but also expensive. eBook format would be handy due to lack of space for physical books, as long as images don't suffer.