Weird issue with clef changes on transposing instruments
I found this by accident. I changed the clef from treble to bass on a transposing instrument while in the transposing key. I hit the concert key button (because I like to compose in concert key first) and it still showed the bass clef - fine. A few measure down the line I changed the clef back to treble, while in concert key. Oddly, if I go back into the transposing key (toggle "concert key" off) it changed the treble clef back into bass clef. I had to go into transposing key, change the clef to treble, THEN go into concert key.
Is that how MS was intentionally programmed? That seems odd.
Comments
In general, it's designed that you can change the clef in concert pitch without it affecting transposed pitch. This allows you to compose the Bari Sax using bass clef in concert pitch and show the transposed treble clef notes. This is of course only one example. This independence is used by some instruments, particularly the double bass, which sounds (transposes) an octave below what's written and at times is written using either the tenor or treble clef.
In reply to In general, it's designed… by mike320
OK. I personally don't see any need for it but maybe it's a help for some composers. I have noticed that MS automatically puts different clefs on the C.Bass transposing pitch vs concert pitch.
In reply to OK. I personally don't see… by odelphi231
One very important application of this feature is how tuba parts are handled. In the brass band tradition tubas are transposing instruments and use treble clef. In the orchestral and concert band tradition they are written at sounding pitch and use bass clef. MuseScore makes it easy(ish) to make both transposing treble clef and and non-transposing bass clef parts with just a single tuba part in the score.
In reply to One very important… by SteveBlower
Thank you Steve. That is a great explanation as to how an instrument can use two different clefs in the same score. I understand now. I was having a hard time picturing the need for it. I will ask my brother about that. He plays tuba. I have seen his music and I don't remember seeing it written in treble clef. Does it transpose an octave, like the C. Bass when written in treble clef?
In reply to Thank you Steve. That is a… by odelphi231
UK brass bands usually use two different tubas called double Bb and Eb. As I said, in this tradition they are both written in treble clef. The double Bb transposes down an octave and a ninth, so the sounding Bb below the bass clef is written as middle C in treble clef. The Eb transposes down an octave and a major 6th, so the sounding Eb on ledger line below the bass clef is written as middle C in treble clef. The idea is that children are introduced to the brass band playing a Bb cornet. All the other instruments (except bass trombone for some reason) transpose in Bb or Eb and are written in treble clef with appropriate transpositions so that they don't need too learn new fingerings when they graduate (or are demoted) to a differently pitched instrument.
Orchestral and concert band players often also play in brass bands (indeed a lot of them started playing in brass bands) and can and do read both types of parts. One trick for Eb treble clef tuba players presented with a concert pitch bass clef part is to read it as if it is treble clef but adjust the key signature by adding three sharps (or removing three flats). You will see that the Eb below the bass clef then can be read as if it is a middle C in the treble clef and everything falls into place. Bari sax players do the same sort of thing.
My first instrument is clarinet but I acquired a double Bb tuba that was going spare and started playing from treble clef parts as my father had taught me trumpet fingerings. Then I got some gigs playing string bass parts in a swing band and had to learn bass clef and octave transpositions. (Tuba gigs are much easier to come by than clarinet gigs). My treble clef playing is very rusty now and I need a good bit of notice before I can do it. As for changing from one to the other in a session - forget it!
In reply to UK brass bands usually use… by SteveBlower
Wow. You are much more talented than me. I play fairly decent jazz piano (once played in a pickup quartet with friends) but I mostly noodle on my own. I think my brother plays the double Bb tuba. In high school he would switch with baritone/euphonium when needed. He also plays the flute because it has the same fingering as sax (his first instrument) but parents could afford a sax so he switched to flute. Got a scholarship to Northwestern, so he is pretty good.
In reply to Thank you Steve. That is a… by odelphi231
One tuba player is not likely to see both tuba parts in the same song. What is easy is changing the music from one tuba's music to another with a couple of clicks. No need to copy and paste the create a new part.