Structuring the Flow of a Score
I am proficient with instruments but not with notation. I know what I'm asking is profoundly simple for most but I've struggled with it for a couple of years and it caused me to give up while using MuseScore2. Now I'm trying to tackle this again with MuseScore3 but there's obviously some things I just don't understand after trying every option I can think of.
The file below hopefully describes in no uncertain terms what I'm trying to do. I would greatly appreciate some guidance as to how to correctly define the required jumps.
Thanks, Nick
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| score-flow.jpg | 65.76 KB |
Comments
I'm not sure the two halves of your file say the same thing. The second half makes more sense than the first half.
I think less is better. Perhaps write it out with as few repeats as possible to see if that order is really what you want.
In reply to I'm not sure the two halves… by bobjp
Thanks for the suggestion. I can make repeats work, using first and second endings. What I can't do is jump from the first chorus back to verse 3 skipping the repeat sign of the verse then playing the second chorus and jumping to the ending.
Would this scheme be more logical?
Intro
Verse
|:Verse, Chorus:|
|:Ending:|
Final
In reply to Would this scheme be more… by underquark
Thanks for the suggestion. I've never seen pop notation use that, but maybe as a last resort.
How about this?
Score_map.mscz
Honors your request.
In reply to How about this? [inline… by Jm6stringer
Just a normal D.S would achieve the same, without the need for a fine.
In reply to Just a normal D.S would… by jeetee
True...
The OP used terms like "Ending" and "Final Seq." and "Played 1 time following the Ending" (???), so I did place an actual, authentic Fine.
In reply to How about this? [inline… by Jm6stringer
Thanks for the suggestion. I think I tried that and it wouldn't play the repeats in the Ending, but I can't be sure until I try it again.
In reply to Thanks for the suggestion. … by Nick Itzal
It does return to the sign but then it skips the second chorus and goes right to the ending.
I wish they'd use a simpler method where you describe the phrasing of the piece using measure numbers, something like 1-30, 1-30, 31-41, 1-30, 31-41, 42-52, 42-52, 53-60. And then MuseScore can sketch in the jumps using generic labels [if need be] that you can edit.
In reply to It does return to the sign… by Nick Itzal
It's important to realize the primary function of MsueScore is to produce readable notation for humans. What you describe is not how it's done in printed music - it's done instead with DS and all that. So that's why museScore does as well, so your score is ready to be performed. Musicians wouldn't be able to follow a roadmap like you describe nearly as well.
In reply to It does return to the sign… by Nick Itzal
The file posted by Jm6stringer above does play back as per your wishes for me. Are you on the latest MuseScore version (3.6.2)?
Alternatively though, you don't really need a jump at all in this instance, as the chorus and the verses have the same starting point you can just add a repeat barline to the end of the chorus (see attached). Just be aware that this notation will be confusing to more musicians than the D.S. one.
In reply to The file posted by… by jeetee
Just be aware that this notation will be confusing to more musicians than the D.S. one.
Agreed.
It lacks the symmetry of what are termed simple repeats - with each end repeat barline having its own complementary start repeat barline (and vice versa).
In reply to Just be aware that this… by Jm6stringer
I found a solution, and it turns out to be pretty simple. I thought I tried this combination, but apparently I didn't. In any event, it all works if you use "DS al Coda" and then jump over it the second time through using "To Coda."
In reply to I found a solution, and it… by Nick Itzal
You wrote:
...then jump over it the second time through...
You should label each section in your attached score so we can easily compare it to your original request shown here:
![roadmap.png]( "roadmap.png")
Originally you didn't "jump over it the second time through" - whatever that it might be.
In reply to You should label the… by Jm6stringer
The actual number of measures in each segment shown in the graphic is just for illustration purposes. The original question dealt with how to navigate from one segment to another to achieve the desired flow. I'm not jumping over anything except the measure I declared to contain the DS al Coda instruction, which is at the end of the chorus.
In reply to The actual number of… by Nick Itzal
You wrote:
I'm not jumping over anything except...
Huh? So that means you are jumping over something - namely measure 6. So, this is something different from your original "flow".
![To_Coda.png]( "To_Coda.png")
Here's your "new" score:
See:
ds-al-coda-rev2.mscz
Measure 5 is marked "Chorus" measure 6 follows it. Is measure 6 part of the "Chorus"? Since 5 & 6 are played after Verse 2, then why are 5 & 6 not also played after Verse 3? Look at your original flowchart which I added.
You skip over 6, so this is a different "Chorus" and different roadmap from your original request, where you do not cut off (jump over) part of the "Chorus".
In reply to You wrote: I'm not jumping… by Jm6stringer
Uh huh. You're probably the only one in existence who took my flow diagram as a 10 measure piece in its entirety. It was five sections with each section containing 2 measures to ensure there was room to write my notation. It's representative of the flow, not the literal piece.
That being said, I was looking for jumps or some system that could accomplish the flow stated in the diagram, which I found by use of D.S. al Coda -> Segno -> To Coda -> Coda. I think you need to consider that one always "jumps" over D.S. al Coda by some means such as "To Coda" otherwise the piece would be stuck in an infinite loop. In other words, "jumping over" D.S. al Coda is inherent in its use.
In reply to Uh huh. You're probably the… by Nick Itzal
> "otherwise the piece would be stuck in an infinite loop"
No it won't, as by convention a Jump is only executed once and that is at the last regular repeat of the Jump location.
In some historic (mostly choral) scores there are some jumps that are taken multiple times, but this is not "standard" and often clarified by the score context (for example, number of verses).
In reply to > "otherwise the piece would… by jeetee
You're talking convention, and I'm talking about MuseScore, where it will repeat indefinitely.
In reply to You're talking convention,… by Nick Itzal
> "You're talking convention, and I'm talking about MuseScore, where it will repeat indefinitely."
The only reason for MuseScore indefinitely is if you have explicitly asked it do so by turning on loop mode.
Yes I'm talking convention, because MuseScore follows it. Or at least it should, and does according to the 60-something automated test files for it. It should follow those conventions where they're clear, because that's how I wrote it to be.
Now that doesn't exclude that there might be a bug which we've missed. But in that case, please share such a score showing the indefinitely repeating behavior.
Because so far in this thread, the score by Jm6stringer as well as the one by me both play back exactly as you've requested; and your latest example does not.
In reply to > "You're talking convention… by jeetee
I started using MuseScore almost 4 years ago with MuseScore-2.2.1-x86_64.AppImage. I could never get the jumps to work so I gave up. Recently, I decide to pick back up on what I was working on using MuseScore-3.6.2.548021370-x86_64.AppImage.
Unfortunately, I just upgraded my Ubuntu to 22.04.1 LTS and 3.6 wouldn't run properly because every time I moved the mouse I got a "MuseScore not responding message." Someone else had the same problem, which he corrected so I followed his advice updating my Mesa drivers. This had no effect so I was running my MuseScore 2 file using MuseScoreNightly-202107211558-master-947fad7-x86_64.AppImage. The idea was to try and see if the jumps worked in MuseScore4 so that I could ignore errant behavior in MuseScore2 and focus on the other aspects to the score while I tried to get MuseScore3 working properly.
Somehow in all of this I ended up corrupting the file, which gave me warning messages when I tried to load it. But it also gave me an ignore, which I became accustomed to using without knowing exactly what the problem was. Eventually, i looked at the error messages a little more closely and saw there were a number of measures that had a duration that exceeded the time signature by an eighth note. I edited these measures and the load messages went away.
I continued working on updating and fixing things that didn't upgrade smoothly and somehow I fixed the mouse problem in MuseScore3. I have no idea what it was I did that corrected the problem. I then ran the MuseScore2 file in MuseScore3 and the jumps worked perfectly. I then discovered I could get MuseScore2 to honor the jump (D.S. al Coda) by inserting a "To Coda" before it.
Not that it matters, but you can see this behavior if you load the attached file in MuseScore2 (MuseScore-2.2.1-x86_64.AppImage) and play it back. It works fine. Now delete the "To Coda" and rerun it and MuseScore ignores D.S. al Coda entirely. However, in MuseScore3 the absence of "To Coda" results in the measure containing D.S. al Coda to be repeated through on each pass, which I have to imagine is the correct behavior unless you don't want that measure played again, which was my case.
So everything is working just fine at this point. My system is up-to-date and MuseScore-3.6.2.548021370-x86_64.AppImage is handling all aspects of the score correctly. I'm looking forward to scoring a backlog of work, which I couldn't do without MuseScore, it being the value it is.
Thanks for your help, Nick
In reply to I started using MuseScore… by Nick Itzal
Ah yes, 3.5 had a big refactor in the way we process Jumps and Voltas. 2.1 already had quite some volta improvements as well, but the real jump improvements are there since 3.5.1
In reply to Uh huh. You're probably the… by Nick Itzal
You wrote:
You're probably the only one in existence who took my flow diagram as a 10 measure piece in its entirety.
No, I do realize that it was a condensed representation of the important sections without fully notating, for example, 8 measure verse(s) and 12 measure chorus, etc.
If you look at my very first score attachment, Score_map.mscz, it shows my Intro section having only a single measure. I also added notes to help with following the playback, knowing it does not sound anything like your score. The important part was accurately labelling the Intro, not how many measures comprise that section, or any other section in the actual score. Check my score example against your original flow chart. It follows it.
You were the one using 2 measures for each of your 5 sections, so 10 measures appear in your MuseScore file. That's the info. you provided as "representing" your score, so I used it afterwards. That's also why I requested you label each section - for clarity in identification.
Here's your flow diagram:
![Flow.png]( "Flow.png")
You wrote:
It was five sections with each section containing 2 measures to ensure there was room to write my notation.
Okay, so five sections;
![Different.png]( "Different.png")
Intro - Verse - Chorus - Ending - Final Seq.
Your flow chart does not show measures at all, but your most recent attachment - ds-al-coda-rev.mscz - does play a two measure Chorus at the first pass and then only a one measure Chorus upon the second pass (because of the 'To Coda'). I was questioning the accuracy of your notated score compared to your flow chart with regard to the two, now different, choruses. That's all.
In reply to The file posted by… by jeetee
Yes, I'm on 3.6.2, but I come from Forte and I'm not yet fluent in MuseScore. I didn't play jm6stringer's file because when I looked at it I thought it was a graphic. Nonetheless, it does solve the problem. Thanks jm6stringer! I just didn't realize you could nest unbalanced repeats--and I've been doing this how long? In the case of the verses and chorus there's one begin bar coupled to two end bars, and it makes simple sense.
Thanks for pointing this out. Thanks everyone.