Double repeat sign forces clef to be displayed in between

• Aug 31, 2022 - 17:07

While editing Musescore allows clef change on the beginning measure after the double repeat sign. But when the document is saved and reopened, double repeat sign is split and clef appears in the space between. Is there a workaround?

Attachment Size
Clef_repeat.mscz 7.97 KB

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• Aug 31, 2022 - 17:18

If you're seeing the clef change after the repeat, that's a bug - the proper place is between, since the clef is presumably changing only once. If there is a second change within the repeated section, the proper place to indicate the return to the first clef would be at the end of that second section.

So, your score so far is correct as is. There is only one change from bass to treble, so it goes outside of any repeat signs.

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• Aug 31, 2022 - 18:47

Traditions change - in previous centuries it was probably more common to place clef changes within repeats, but in modern times perhaps not so much. If you're trying to reproduce a historic edition and want to get those details as the original editor had them, you'll have to use offset and/or leading space adjustments on the clef/barline to get this. And yes, there are existing requests that additional customization controls be added for this, so hopefully that happens someday.

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• Aug 31, 2022 - 21:35

You are perfectly right. I have consulted the manual: "Behind Bars Guide To Music Notation". In the modern standard notation: clef, time signature and key signature all appear before the repeats.
Screenshot 2022-08-31 221602.png
And as you have pointed above, if the change occurs between the repeat signs, it must be reinstated at the very end before the repeat barline.
I personally am not so happy with this in the case where the music is very simple and clef is used only for the reason of interpreting pitches, and my reason for this is that it disturbs the horizontal flow for the sight reading. So in my opinion old masters had felt it correctly to insert the clef after the double repeat sign, for the kind of music that they wrote and performed. They simplified it well. Of course this is only the matter of preference, and maybe such practice shouldn't survive. After all we do need firm standard if possible. Musescore at least allows me to save .pdf in the form I prefer.
Just out of curiosity now I am wondering about the more complicated situation, how would I notate this in Musescore:
Screenshot 2022-08-31 215618.png
In particular it seems to be hard to change clef, reset key signature and time signature at the very end before the repeat sign ? If this requires many tweaks to achieve, should we ask this to be a new feature to adjust automatic resetting at the very end of the repeat section?

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• Aug 31, 2022 - 23:05

Yes, there should definitely be a way of forcing the change either before the repeat, after, or between the double repeat. Meanwhile, workaround is the same as the other case, manual adjustments to leading space and offset.

I'm not really understanding what is "simpler" about moving it within the repeats, though. To me it's much more likely to cause confusion, because at the moment someone jumps back to the beginning, they see the treble clef again, and they start may thinking, "oh no, why is there a treble clef here when I thought I was already in treble clef, was I playing it wrong all this time?" Kind of the same reason why people think it might be confusing to have too many courtesy accidentals, but there, I think, it's obvious from giving people music without them that they will often mess up otherwise, just human nature. I don't think repeating the clef does anyone any favors because they weren't likely to forget.

That said, once again, yes, no reason not to provide options.

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• Aug 31, 2022 - 22:26

I have tried to recreate the last example by using the fake measure. Probably not the most direct way, but it looks close to the desired.
Screenshot 2022-08-31 232119.png
I guess this would be too much work in a larger piece with frequent changes, so I guess it would be desirable that Musescore would handle this automatically.

Attachment Size
Repeats.mscz 5.01 KB

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• Aug 31, 2022 - 17:50

Second thought:
Highlighting first note in the measure and changing clef causes clef to be displayed INSIDE that measure.
Highlighting the entire measure and changing clef causes clef to be displayed BEFORE that measure.
Perfect. So it would be so wonderful this consistency works with double repeat sign, i.e. it is a free choice.

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• Sep 1, 2022 - 09:18

My wish would be this one:
Create clef by referencing the first note/rest in the bar would put the clef INSIDE the bar, just like it does for the note/rest in the middle of the bar.
Create it by referencing the entire measure would put it BEFORE the bar.
And finally clef pulls key and time signature.

For the repeats it would also add suggested change clef/key/time at the end of the repeat.

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• Sep 1, 2022 - 12:53

I will. And coincidentally I discovered more bugs related to this. If you try to change not only clef but also key and time signature before the repeat, Musescore will remove repeat sign, and it is hard to get all these elements to stand before the bar as it should.
I will use now some time to document all these behaviors, to write the complete bug report.

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