MuseScore 4 Handbook is Useless!!

• Jul 25, 2023 - 23:16

Fred Juergens (https://musescore.com/user/30955925) sent a message: I started using MS3 in a small way to create some polka band arrangements for some old-time music past its copyright restrictions. Not a lot, so I never really learned it; I'm a neophyte still. I printed the Handbook for MS3 and studied it pretty hard, making my notations on pages that I needed to refer to for clues as to how do various tasks. The MS4 came out, and the old handbook didn't work. I decided to try it anyway and printed out the PDF of the handbook (222 pages) at a cost of 52$, double-sided.
Discovery #1. the PDF for the Handbook didn't have any page numbers and the table of contents didn't have any page numbers for ANY of the items listed there. How am I to find where those items I want to look up are ????
Discovery #2. Online there are 21 CHAPTER headings for various topics. TheTofC doesn't use different fonts to identify those chapter headings. I have to scan through the whole damn TofC to locate those chapter headings, which I did find. I wrote the page numbers (I'd gone through the whole 222 pages to number each of those on my printed copy.
Discovery #3. When I get to page #194 on my copy, I discover that the remaining 28 pages actually contain ANOTHER table of contents, which is a bit better organized, but still uses the same font for chapter headings, the material below each, and no page-numbers. WTF?

Now, I don't have multiple computers or monitors so I can't have the online handbook on my MacBook screen when I'm trying to arrange Beer Barrel Polka using the MuseScore Program at the same time. Or visa versa. And I don't know how to edit PDF's to add page-numbers or modify the table of contents fonts to make it easier to find what I'm looking for.

Is there any way for your team to fix these problems? Is there any way I could contribute to these improvements? I really admire all the work that's been put into MuseScore from the beginning. I've paid for my access to the program. It just needs more work on simple matters like I mention before some of the the other improvements like improved trill notation, which I'll never use anyhow.

Someone WROTE this Handbook. Can you pass my questions on to her/him. I would love to be able to communicate in person. Fred Juergens: fredjuergens@charter.net

The message above was written and sent to a forum. It was also sent your 3 person support team. Paula answered, didn't address any of my concerns, and told me to try GITHUB. So I tried to get on to that service. After a lot of rigamarole, I was told to do something that looks like greek to me -- to add something to a repository, whatever that is. I "think" that something was several lines of computer code, but I don't understand what ANY of it means or how to add it. I'm at a complete loss as to how to get my major concern addressed. I've paid the fee to be called a PRO, I think, but I'm not getting help from anyone in the MuseScore Community.

Comments

• Jul 26, 2023 - 00:48

Why didn't you open the PDF in Acrobat, which is a free PDF reader. The manual is indexed and has links to major sections. And a "Find" routine to look for individual terms. And Pro has nothing to do with the notation software.

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• Jul 26, 2023 - 07:20

You wrote:
I've paid the fee to be called a PRO...
Okay, but be advised that the MuseScore music notation software is provided free of charge to all. It is full-featured and requires no payment to unlock any "advanced" or "pro" features. Support for the software is provided here in the forums (where you presently are) at musescore.org.
See:
https://help.musescore.com/hc/en-us/articles/210257565-What-is-MuseScore

Regarding your PRO subscription at musescore.com, see:
https://help.musescore.com/hc/en-us/articles/12532645611410-Why-does-Mu…-
and the difference between dotorg and dotcom:
https://musescore.org/en/node/277874

You wrote:
Someone WROTE this Handbook.
See:
https://musescore.org/en/node/329332

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• Jul 26, 2023 - 08:44

"Someone wrote this handbook"
Well not really the handbook is a collective effort that anybody is free to improve, including you.
Also note that the handbook is related to the 100% free Musescore editor from musescore.org, absolutely unrelated to any subscription you might have paid to use the score sharing site musescore.com

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• Jul 26, 2023 - 19:54

Most programs that can display and print PDF files can add page numbers for you. So be sure to check the documentation for them.

I recommend simply displaying the HTMl though, and searching that normally (eg, using your browsers "Find" feature, normally Ctrl+F. Also you can check the "full table of contents" that you can access directly from the main Handbook page (the one that apparently is printing as page 194).

Or you can simply use logic to find things. If you're looking for info on fretboard diagrams, consider trying the guitar chapter, for instance.

MuseScore has no official support team. The people you contacted work for the score-sharing website musescore.com, which is the website you are apparently paying to be a Pro member of, but that has no bearing whatsoever on MuseScore itself - it's just a website for sharing scores. their support staff are not trained in helping with MsueScore itself. For that, just ask in these forums.

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• Jul 26, 2023 - 20:56

Marc, Thanks for your response Maybe I'm just too illiterate to follow your suggestions.
1. I could find no "adding page-numbering info" on Acrobat.
2. I don't know how to display a document with HTMI.
3. Simple logic doesn't apply to my dilemma; I want to PRINT the PDF of the Handbook for reference.
4. Is there no one who actually is responsible for what MuseScore4 handbook PDF looks like in print?
5. Have you (or anyone else) actually printed out the first few pages of the PDF to know what I'm talking about?
6. Below is a proper Table of Contents page that I photographed from "iPhone for Seniors". That's useful to me.
7. I look forward to your reply

Attachment Size
IMG_3147.jpeg 3.17 MB

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• Jul 26, 2023 - 21:10
  1. Here's the first search result that came up when I did a Google search for "how to add page numbers with Acrobat" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InE1TwmMrhc
  2. You don't have to do anythingspecial to display an HTMl file in your browser - just click the link at the beginning of the Handbook where it says "view a printer-friendly version of the handbook". Here's the link in case for some reason you have trouble findthing that towards the very top: https://musescore.org/en/print/book/export/html/329209?toc=1
  3. By simply logic I mean, instead of printing the Handbook and then trying to wade through hundreds of pages of info to find what you are looking for, I mean, you can probably find it much faster just looking online.
  4. As an open source project, MuseScore is the collective responsibility of all of its users. Many of us had a hand in writing the text. But I don't think anyone has yet voluntered to create an actual PDF. As it says right there in the Handbook, we rely on people to simply use their browsers for that sort of thing.
  5. I haven't printed this in particular, but I've certainly printed enough other similar documents to know what they look like. I'm not particularly understanding what you are expecting that is different from you are getting
  6. The TOC you show is obviously from a printed book., The Handbook is an online document. These are simply different things. A printed book can't do the things an online document can, and an online document can't do the things a printed book can.
  7. I hope this helped!

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• Jul 26, 2023 - 21:43
  1. I went straight the the Acrobat program, and got nothing in their help section.
  2. That's exactly what I did. You'll notice that the link you sent me contains the words print/book. I just don't understand the HDMI jargon, I guess.
  3. There's no way I can write notes for my later reference on an online version . Or if there is, I don't know how to do it.
  4. I rely on handbooks that are offered as "print/book" and the output of that printing.
  5. The TOC shows what I expect. I guess you don't wish to take the time to print any of the handbook pages. That tells me you're you don't really care about my point of view.
  6. Then why do you even offer a pdf of the handbook?
  7. We apparently live in two different worlds, and you don't understand mine.

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• Jul 26, 2023 - 23:18

@Fred Juergens
You can get a printer-friendly version of the Handbook.
From MuseScore itself, choose Help >Online handbook > 3 dots menu (top right) > Printer-friendly version

[EDIT] Then follow the instructions shown in the online Handbook:
Download the handbook and create a PDF
Use this link to view a printer-friendly version of the handbook:
https://musescore.org/en/print/book/export/html/329209?toc=1
then use your browser's Print facility to turn that page into a PDF for offline viewing.

This PDF will have numbered pages. The Table of contents does not show an index of page numbers for each heading and sub-heading, but you can Ctrl+click a heading to go to the correct page.

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 00:52

So you say....the "printer-friendly version" Below's a scan of the first page of the Acrobat rendering of the pdf. It's headed by the words "Table of Contents" & lists 36 items, of which a few have subdivisions. The numbers apparently refer to sections in the handbook, but do not correspond to possible actual page numbers of the 225 sheets I printed out.

Item #3 actually says "download the handbook and create a PDF". Item #4 refers to "chapter links", and if you look at that item, all that is there is an underlined set of words, that I can't use as a link in the printed version. These words could easily also refer to a page number or an item number, but the PDF DOESN'T HAVE PAGE NUMBERS. These item numbers run to over 600, yet THERE ARE NO PAGE NUMBERS on any of the 225 pages that I printed out. If one looks carefully items 1-7 actually appear on printed page #1, after the Table of Contents. A normal Table of Contents will have chapter numbers; there are 21 listed if you go through

On physical page 194 (I went through & wrote actual page numbers on my printed version), a SECOND "Table of Contents" appears (where one might normally expect an index)--again with no printed page numbers, and none of the 600 or so item numbers in the initial table of contents.

I guess what I want (rightfully so) is a User-Friendly version of the the printer-friendly crap masquerading as a as a printed handbook, with page numbers, chapter titles and sub-sections with each title. The links in the on-line version are useless, if one wants a physical "book" .

Nobody I've corresponded with seems to understand (or care about) my issues to actually check out the PDF document itself. I'd be interested to learn what happens if/when you actually do the advice you gave me.

Attachment Size
Page1ofHandbook.jpg 70.79 KB

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 03:36

Just for fun I down-loaded the MS3 Handbook. Below is a jpeg of its 2nd page. The first page is a nice "cover" page. Hopefully you can see the difference. THAT'S what I think the MS4 should look like. How come the new "handbook" looks like shit? Comments from others seem to actually think there shouldn't be a printed Handbook for #4. That anyone who wants and is sentient can contribute to #4 is foolish for the future of who can use your great new program. What will happen if there's ever a MS5?. No instructions at all??? How can I get this message to all the current contributors to the MS4 "handbook"????

Attachment Size
MS3HandbookP1.jpg 262.02 KB

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 04:04

Yes there are no page numbers on the printer friendly version. Nobody said to download that version. I believe they said to use your browser to download the PDF version. Which does have page numbers. They not have been clear about how to do that. We don't know what browser you use. Here is how to do it in Chrome.

  1. Select the printer friendly version by using the three dots in the upper right. You can also get there by selecting the link a few lines down in the manual page.

  2. Select the three dots in the upper right again.

  3. Select print.

  4. In the window that shows your printer there should be a down arrow that will let you choose "Save as PDF".

  5. The result 278 page document (that you can print) will have page numbers.

Beware that the MU4 manual is far from complete.

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 22:18

I downloaded the html page and opened in LibreOffice. Deleted the useless toc, fixed the image sizes, inserted a regular TOC. And began to fix the Heading Numbers because the Heading structure is weird in the html.
But it's too much work required to get it all done manually. I'm sure there is a better html2pdf converter out there (especially as the manual will always be updated.)
Anyway here's is the PDF and I can also share the LibreOffice-File if interested.
link valid for 30 days:
https://ufile.io/h8gc5795
book.PNG

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 15:27
  1. As noted elsewhere, if you aren't actually using Acrobat but instead just the free reader program, it doesn't have this. But lots of other programs do.
  2. I suspect some browsers do provide ways of doing this, but indeed, a print copy can be nice too. They each have different strengths.
  3. It's not fair at all to say I don't care, and also very unfair to call the hard work of lots of volunteers "useless" just because it is optimized for the web instead of print. Keep in mind its the very same volunteers who created this free resources who are also providing the free support that goes along with it, and try to be respectful.
  4. We offer a printable version because it's useful also, even if the organization of Handbook is more optimized for online use. If other volunteers want to step forward and find ways of improving that, the best way to get that happen would be to respectfully ask for what you want.

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 17:07
  1. Name "lots of other programs" that are free, please. Is that respectful enough?
  2. A decent print copy, like the handbook for MS3, is what I expected from MS4, after using 3 for several years. I respectfully request that you actually compare the two, at least by printing out the first few pages of each at least. I'm just an ordinary-guy user who feels blind-sided by the responses I've received from volunteers who essentially tell me that the "real" way to go is to use the on-line guide and disregard what needs to be fixed in the printable version..
  3. Several of the responses I've received have indicated complete agreement with my issue about the usefulness of what volunteers call a "handbook". The significant part of that word is "-book". Most volunteers responses DON'T or CANNOT provide support for my issue, which I think is disrespectful to me, who is asking for help. I'm not getting useful acknowledgment on the forums of any indication that some volunteer wants to do so. Some volunteer(s) did a good job on the MS3 document, didn't they?
  4. The MS4 printable version is NOT useful, at least to this Mensa-member hobbyist. Why do the well-meaning volunteers who created THIS printable version expect someone else to fix the problems they've created?

Respectfully yours, I'm waiting for your response......Fred

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 17:19

The first free PDF tool that can add page numbers that showed in a Google Search is smallpdf, but the others that Google listed should work well too.

Anyhow, as explained, the focus of the volunteers working on this has been on creating great content and organizing it well for online viewing. If you'd like to also help round up some additional volunteers to help figure out a way to optimize for print (given that the method used for MuseScore 3 is no longer available to us), please feel free. I recommend, though, starting a new thread with a more helpful title.

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 16:36

As I recall from when we began work on the MU4 Handbook, the tools that were previously used to generate the special PDF version of the Handbook are no longer being maintained and there was no easy way to get this to work on the MU4 sources. My memory of the details is fuzzy and there is probably more to it than that, but I am pretty sure this wasn't just an oversight or a bug - it was a known limitation of the system that we had to work within. Which is actually one reason we worked so hard to restructure the Handbook in ways that make online usage better (breaking up long pages into shorter ones, reorganizing content into chapters that correspond to separate pages, etc).

BTW, Peter (shoogle) is the one who handles this aspect of the site, and I see he is already on it as far as triaging the GitHub issue, so everything is under control. Not sure what that will mean in terms of what's possible, but thanks for submitting the issue! It's something we all knew about but might have slipped below the radar otherwise.

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 18:59

OK, I acknowledge that you recognize this is a problem, and have known it for quite a while. I also recall that somehow I was told I was to use GitHub (a totally unknown to me application) to somehow fix my issue. (PETER?) If you "all knew about it", then why has it taken so long to acknowledge it to me, and waste all my (and your) time trying to get a comment like this? I guess I'm just going back to MS3, at least until all you volunteers can tell me that the MS4 printed version is at least as good as MS3's.

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 21:47

OK, I'm not a whiz on understanding Github. I'm not a soft-ware developer, either, so why SHOuLD I know about it?. I just want the volunteers to say they'll fix the issue. After a lot of back & forth with MuseScore volunteers responding to my issue, it's taken one to actually put the issue on Github. Once I read there that Peter decided my issue was low priority, which is his perogative, I guess, I don't expect my issue to ever be fixed.

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 22:43

Yes, it's known that the MuseScore handbook is not otptimized for print and no one has ever said otherwise. Just as it's known that the MsueScore 3 handbook was very poorly written and organized overall in all other respects. And that's why we have volunteered so much of our time to improve it. Even without the special tools that allowed the MuseScore 3 handbook to look better in print, the MsueScore 4 handbook is far better written and organized in general.

So, no one has been trying to waste your time. On the contrary, we are spending lots of our own time volunteering to try to help you, on top of the hundreds of hours we've spent working on the handbook itself. But indeed, if you don't want need the improved engraving or playback or other improvements in MuseScore 4, you are of course welcome to continue using MuseScore 3.

Anyhow, this thread has run its course so I wont' be returning for further comments here. But if you have further questions you'd like to ask in a new thread with a respectiful-worded title, I remain eager to assist in whatever way I can, as I have been for over 12 years now.

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• Jul 27, 2023 - 20:55

Thanks for acknowledging that my issue is in fact a problem; I assume that the word "regression" means that MS4 is in some way worse than MS3. l opened the link you created. Upon reading it through, it seems that the person (Peter) who may be the best volunteer to work on this issue had ranked it as a low priority. That alone tells me that all the volunteers who know something about this issue have other things more important to do. Thanks for giving me some insight into how your system works. I have no intention of trying to round up other volunteers to fix my issue, when Peter makes the judgment that this issue is not very important inside the MuseScore bubble.

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• Jul 28, 2023 - 00:09

Let me just add that I am an old guy. In the old days we just got out a piece of paper. a pencil, and went for it. I like to have instructions printed out so I can hold them in my hands. Now we have computers to "help" us write music. They are supposed to make things easier. And yet we need a 300 page manual to do that. "Easier"? I get the frustration. The manual for my car is over 500 pages. I'm not about to print that out. The reason that a printed manual is a lower priority might just be that almost no one does that any more. They feel it is more efficient and environmentally friendly to have it on your computer. I don't have the work space to have my computer and a bunch of books open. I do take some flak at work for having print copies of instructions for jobs I do. But that is only 10 or so pages. We all use the software differently. I get your frustration. I find things that don't work in the software to be more of a problem than the manual. But that's me.

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• Jul 28, 2023 - 04:24

AND ME!!!. I'll be 85 in a few weeks. I love that MuseScore can store drafts of compositions, allowing for changes to be made, and then print (on paper!!!) an entire score and individual parts as necessary. It's a whole lot easier than handwriting over and over. And even then it doesn't look as good as what MuseScore does.

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