A doubt (about non-written rules)

• Apr 21, 2016 - 20:42

Hi, gang!!!

I have a doubt about a MuseScore behaviour into one of "my" scores.

Please, take a look into the attached file ("Ya Cristo viene (cuarteto masculino).mscz").

The issue is about the measures 9 and 10, into the First Tenor voice.

As you can see (and hear), that tenor has to play a natural D, which starts into the ninth measure and ends into the tenth measure.

BUT... MuseScore doesn't show the natural sign (becuadro in Spanish) into the tenth measure.

Is it "academically" right? ???

Is there some "non-written" rule about this? ???

I'm not sure about this, but... something is tempting me to think that there should be a natural sign into the tenth measure.

Please!!! Can somebody clear me this point? ???

Just a question.

Greetings & Blessings from Chile!!!!!!!

Juan

Attachment Size
Ya Cristo viene (cuarteto masculino).mscz 21.32 KB

Comments

• Apr 21, 2016 - 23:09

I don't know if there is a rule as such but I don't place an accidental if the ties note remains on the same line. If the ties note crosses to the next line (next system) then I add an accidental in brackets. MuseScore, unfortunately, deletes the tie if you do this and deletes the accidental if you re-instate the tie.

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• Apr 22, 2016 - 02:22

Yes, ties across *systems* do often repeat the accidental. It's not strictly required, but many editors do this, and MuseScore does not currently have a way of doing this. I think it should probably happen automatically, and you could then make in invisible if you prefer not to see it.

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• Apr 22, 2016 - 02:18

No, there is not supposed to be a natural sign. It is supposed to be understood that a tied note keeps the same accidental. However, if in measure 10 that D had not taken the entire measure but instead was followed by *another* D, that D would need an explicit accidental. An explicit natural if you want a D natural, an explicit flat if you want a D flat. Technically, if you omitted the accidental on this second note, it is supposed to revert to D, but it would be an *extremely* bad idea to depend on the reader figuring that out. That is why MuseScore will always insist on placing an accidental there either way. If you really want to omit the accidental despite the advice against it, you'd have to make it invisible.

But again, the tied note itself does *not* require an accidental.

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• Apr 22, 2016 - 02:43

I agree, since the D natural is tied, it means the note is held (for 11 beats) and so there's no reason for a courtesy natural sign anywhere in those 11 beats.

Were I to consider a courtesy accidental at all:
Based on the harmony, I might be inclined to place a courtesy accidental at measure 11 simply to call attention to the first tenor changing the modality of the chord from major to minor.

Courtesy accidental.png

That major to minor harmony shift is magical, and used to great effect in many musical compositions - at least that's what Zarathustra told me. :-)

Regards.

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• Apr 22, 2016 - 20:56

I remember that my Notation teacher told us (when I studied music, in the paleolithic age) that the action of any accidental sign (sharp, flat, natural, etc.) only affects notes into the measure where they are. So, we have to put other sign in the next measure.

I insist I don't know about any written rule about this, but... Something tells me that there should be a natural sign in the next measure, even the tie (in this case).

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• Apr 22, 2016 - 22:15

Yes, officially, an accidental only lasts for the duration of the measure - unless the note is tied across the barline, in which case it applies for the entire duration of the note. So an accidental is not required, and would just confused the reader in most cases since no published music uses accidentals that way (except across syste, breaks, as discussed).

But even though the natural sign only applies for the end of the meausre, it is considered *extremely* important to include "courtesy" accidentals in the next measure anyhow. Consider the following:

courtesy.png

There is probably not a musician alive who would play this correct the first time. The C# lasts only to the barline, so the first C of the next measure reverts to C natural, but this would be very easy to miss. So pretty much every editor in the entire world would insist on a courtesy accidental there even though technically it isn't necessary:

courtesy-2.png

In the case of tied notes, again, it is *not* necessary, or helpful, or advisable at all, to include a second sharp on the tied note. However, the first note *after the tie should get an accidental where it is sharp or natural, because hardly any musicians know for sure what the correct rule is here. So it should like this:

courtesy-3.png

(depending on whether you actually intend sharp or natural in the second measure). No accidental on the tied note, but always a tie on the *following* note if it's the same line or space.

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• Apr 23, 2016 - 05:13

Great reply, Marc. I bought a copy of Music Notation, A Manual of Modern Practice by Gardner Read just so I would know the answers to these kinds of questions. I also have Guidelines for Manuscript Perparation by Gayle Giese and Pick Edmondson for cross-checking.

Courtesy accidentals are also called cautionary and reminder accidentals. They are not required, but strongly recommended. An equivalent strong recommendation is that they should appear in parentheses—the only place I would suggest correcting your examples.

What I had forgotten is that an accidental only changes one specific pitch for the remainder of the measure. Other pitches, say an octave above or below, are not affected. Courtesy accidentals can be applied to those pitches to help out people like me who don't remember the esoterics.

One idea for a hack when MuseScore fails to repeat an accidental for a tied note that crosses a system or page boundary: if you are not worried about how MuseScore performs the piece, try substituting a slur in place of a tie. You should then be able to add the required accidental at the beginning of the next system. MuseScore won't play the notes correctly, but it should look OK if you only care about the printed score. I just tried it; you have to flatten out the slur a bit, but it looks correct.

And for those who don't know: there is a great plugin for MuseScore 2.0 for automatically adding courtesy accidentals.

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• Apr 23, 2016 - 16:51

Actually, the modern recommendation is *not* to use parentheses for ordinary courtesy accidentals, and most editors adhere to this practice. Parentheses are reserved for special cases like if you have a whole run of thirty-second notes in a measure with a C# towards the beginning, then a whole bunch more notes with and without accidentals, then another C# towards the end and you are worried people won't remember the accidental. Or, a place where you have a C# in one octave and a C natural an octave above, and even though the natural sign isn't required on the latter, it's not a bad idea to add one. But the case I showed - just confirming the cancellation due to the barline - does *not* normally take parentehses in most editions and most guides on the subject. It's possible Read is an exception, but looking through the published literature, it's pretty clear that the majorty of publishers don't use parentehses most of the time.

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• Apr 30, 2016 - 17:10

Sorry, I missed seeing this when you posted. Yes, my Gardner Read book is from 1979. I also have Guidelines fro Manuscript Preparation by Gayle Giese and Pick Edmonton, an edition revised in 2002 (earlier version date not noted), which also uses the parentheses for courtesy accidentals.

Call me an old-timer, but I prefer the parentheses, although I can guess why they are being removed (probably to reduce visual clutter). Looking for a definitive reference on the web, I was unable to find anything other than that "sometimes they appear in parentheses". I'm not doubting your information—I'm sure your references are better than mine!

In fact, would you be willing to recommend an engraving reference book that doesn't cost an arm and a leg? (Now you know why my references are out-of-date: they were cheap!)

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• Apr 30, 2016 - 18:10

The good ones are not cheap. Elaine Gould's "Behind Bars" is the one generally considered most current and authoritative. It's our go-to source, although we certainly check other references as well.

Actually, though, if you are *truly* an "old-timer", you should have a preference for *not* using parenthesis. msot older editions don't use them either except in the specific cases I mention. See for example http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/c/c1/IMSLP50958-PMLP01410-Op… for an example from the 18th century (albeit barely), or http://ks.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/1/14/IMSLP51718-PMLP01410-Beet… for one from the 19th, or http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/f/fb/IMSLP30364-PMLP01410-Beet… for one from the early 20th.

Note sure when parentheses for courtesy accidentals became a "thing", but from what I can tell, it was a temporary fad - they were uncommon in the old days, are uncommon now, but had a brief run of being popular. Maybe someone with more musicology training could provide more background.

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• May 1, 2016 - 14:57

Hi, Mark,

I am *truly* an old-timer but apparently dealing with senior moments. :-)

I could have sworn courtesy accidentals came with parentheses (and I had two references that agreed), but after seeing your comment, I pulled out my music (and I have some book a lot older than me!) and nary a parenthesis was to be found!

I went through a perceptual problem like this before, which is why I decided to buy some references. Sure, they are a little outdated, but music engraving shouldn't be changing much, right? So much for that—neither book even gives an equal choice to not using them.

Anyway, thanks for the update on engraving practices. I love the history lesson!

Elaine Gould's book is about $58 used, expensive but not out-of-reach. I may consider getting it.

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• Apr 23, 2016 - 15:23

If you wonder why tied notes are an exception just imagine you play this on a violin: To play a tied note you go right on pulling your bow. And you keep the finger of your left hand right where it is. So no "action" required that would make a reminder sign necessary.

Note also that a d flat that might appear later in measure 10 in your example MUST now have the accidental.

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• Apr 30, 2016 - 21:28

I had the occasion to ask Alice Parker about enclosing courtesy accidentals in parentheses last week. Her reply was simply, "no".

Since the Parker-Shaw arrangements are easily the most performed choral works of any single arranger, I think that she counts as an authority.

Although my daughter has been working with Ms Parker for a year now, this was my first opportunity to meet her. The occasion was a rehearsal of my daughter's latest commission and the panel discussion afterwards.

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