It's not really a standard symbol, but then, neither are a lot of other chords that are supported. So I'll look at adding it. Just curious, though - is this really so different from the more standard ma7#11 to be worth the confusion it would likely cause? I mean, sure, they are technically different sets of notes, but when someone sees either symbol, they would probably end up treating them the same in terms of the type of chord voicings they might play, or the types of lines they might improvise if soloing. After all, once one gets beyond basic triads, chord symbols are almost seen as a specifying exactly what notes to play, but rather as implying a set of notes to work with, and either symbol implies the same lydian scale
From a user perspective - you name your chord based on conventions/experience. The real confusion comes when you type in a legit chord and the #/b sign does not change when you transpose.
PS Its not necessarily Lydian - it could be a dominant 7 #11, or the 7th may not be relevant in context (as in this case) - CF#G is a legit triad, albeit a little out there. The name of the chord spells out what notes are NOT there (i.e. the #4 exists with no third, or no 5th - in which case it is a b5 chord).
First, while this is an interesting philosophical discussion, it *shouldn't* really have any impact on whther MuseScore can handle the chord in question. In an ideal world' at least, MuseScore could handle anything reasonable you tossed at it, parsing a chord symbol more or less the way a human would. But unfortunately, the reality is that MuseScore doesn't do this. It has a long list of chord symbols it knows, and if a chord isn't on the list, it isn't recognized, even if it would seem to follow all the normal rules. Chords can be added to the list, but it is a bit cumbersome, as the work has to be reproduced in all the different chord description styles, plus it has to do MusicXML export correctly. So while I don't mind adding a chord that someone argues shold be included, from a practical perspective we can't realistically add every possible chord that could potentially exist. I would bope to keep the list to chord symbols that are really needed by someone. So before I just add a chord, I do like to make sure we've thought it through.
So while I'm already convinced it's worth adding, I do still have resevations about the wisdom of actually using it.
The confusion I alluded to comes from the simple fact that being a non-standard chord symbol, most people will have never seen it before and therefore don't have a ready made concept pf how to play it. They'll see the "sus" and immediately their fingers will probably reach for the natural fourth. If they have time to think about the #4 before moving on to the next chord, they'll probably wonder if you want the #4 in addition to or instead of the natural fourth, and may well guess wrong. So there is a very good chance the chord just won't be played correctly, and that's always the danger when inventing chord symbols.
Then there is the matter of whether a chord symbol really should be expected to tell anyone exactly what notes to play or whether it is more of a guideliens to the implied harmony. As I suggested before, aside from the basic vanilla triads, no professional musicians I know see a chord symbol as telling them to play those notes and only those notes. Except in the very simplest music based only on major and minor triads, accompaniment generally contains added passing tones and color tones used in the figuration of the chord. Any music that is harmonically complex enough to have a sonority like C-F#-G is music in which musicians would not treat a chord symbol so literally. Musicians would add the same sort of additional color tones they would normally add in other harmonically complex music. So even though you might want only those three notes, there is practically no chance that that is all you'll get. Like it or not, you're going to get color tones. And while a musician would try to use context to tell him if the seventh to add would be a major or dominant seventh, there is a decent chance he'd guess wrong given that, again, this is a chord he's never seen before. So not only he would he try to add a seventh somewhere in the accompaniment, but he'd very possibly end up with the wrong one.
Anyhow, it reasons that like this that cause me to advise people not to invwnt chord symbols when other more conventional chord symbols will likely yield better results. As someone who has arranged or edited literally hundeds of charts for inclusion in fakebooks (jazz,blues, rock), I can tell you there is no way the publisher would use a symbol like Csus#4. But of course, it's your chart, so do what you want, and again, I'm already planning on adding this to the lists.
the real issue is, "Why the new, "unconventional" symbol"? Is there actually a logical reason? In the case of a sus chord, sus stands for suspension, achieving a resolution of tension by a semitone step in major and a tone step in minor. There is a logical, musical reason to call it a sus chord. Otherwise it is not a suspension. I would appreciate it if you would make the case that this resolves in the manner of a suspension, or clear up my musical confusion if i am not accurate. I am prepared to change.
I write my scores to be as clear as possible to another player, so that the player can most easily replicate what the score says. I can't waste time in rehearsal explaining some obscure symbol that can be more easily understood if it is represented by a more common symbol.
Also, an unconventional symbol demands a series of logical steps requiring trained musicians to parse out the new meaning, allowing for more errors. In a Jazz situation, where everyone is working at such a high level, sight reading (if notation is used at all) at speed, this is asking for trouble. I resist the cluttering up of logic, myself, and I campaign against it.
I admire the work that goes into this program trying to meet every request, and I understand that there can be artistic graphic reasons for unusual effect, but surely, the whole point of notation is the transfer of information in the most clear manner. Again, I look for logic.
If I want a particular voicing that cannot be made clear by symbols, it is a simple matter to actually notate the voicing, removing all ambiguity.
I feel that just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done.
Comments
It's not really a standard symbol, but then, neither are a lot of other chords that are supported. So I'll look at adding it. Just curious, though - is this really so different from the more standard ma7#11 to be worth the confusion it would likely cause? I mean, sure, they are technically different sets of notes, but when someone sees either symbol, they would probably end up treating them the same in terms of the type of chord voicings they might play, or the types of lines they might improvise if soloing. After all, once one gets beyond basic triads, chord symbols are almost seen as a specifying exactly what notes to play, but rather as implying a set of notes to work with, and either symbol implies the same lydian scale
In reply to It's not really a standard by Marc Sabatella
From a user perspective - you name your chord based on conventions/experience. The real confusion comes when you type in a legit chord and the #/b sign does not change when you transpose.
PS Its not necessarily Lydian - it could be a dominant 7 #11, or the 7th may not be relevant in context (as in this case) - CF#G is a legit triad, albeit a little out there. The name of the chord spells out what notes are NOT there (i.e. the #4 exists with no third, or no 5th - in which case it is a b5 chord).
In reply to What confusion by kcd1961
First, while this is an interesting philosophical discussion, it *shouldn't* really have any impact on whther MuseScore can handle the chord in question. In an ideal world' at least, MuseScore could handle anything reasonable you tossed at it, parsing a chord symbol more or less the way a human would. But unfortunately, the reality is that MuseScore doesn't do this. It has a long list of chord symbols it knows, and if a chord isn't on the list, it isn't recognized, even if it would seem to follow all the normal rules. Chords can be added to the list, but it is a bit cumbersome, as the work has to be reproduced in all the different chord description styles, plus it has to do MusicXML export correctly. So while I don't mind adding a chord that someone argues shold be included, from a practical perspective we can't realistically add every possible chord that could potentially exist. I would bope to keep the list to chord symbols that are really needed by someone. So before I just add a chord, I do like to make sure we've thought it through.
So while I'm already convinced it's worth adding, I do still have resevations about the wisdom of actually using it.
The confusion I alluded to comes from the simple fact that being a non-standard chord symbol, most people will have never seen it before and therefore don't have a ready made concept pf how to play it. They'll see the "sus" and immediately their fingers will probably reach for the natural fourth. If they have time to think about the #4 before moving on to the next chord, they'll probably wonder if you want the #4 in addition to or instead of the natural fourth, and may well guess wrong. So there is a very good chance the chord just won't be played correctly, and that's always the danger when inventing chord symbols.
Then there is the matter of whether a chord symbol really should be expected to tell anyone exactly what notes to play or whether it is more of a guideliens to the implied harmony. As I suggested before, aside from the basic vanilla triads, no professional musicians I know see a chord symbol as telling them to play those notes and only those notes. Except in the very simplest music based only on major and minor triads, accompaniment generally contains added passing tones and color tones used in the figuration of the chord. Any music that is harmonically complex enough to have a sonority like C-F#-G is music in which musicians would not treat a chord symbol so literally. Musicians would add the same sort of additional color tones they would normally add in other harmonically complex music. So even though you might want only those three notes, there is practically no chance that that is all you'll get. Like it or not, you're going to get color tones. And while a musician would try to use context to tell him if the seventh to add would be a major or dominant seventh, there is a decent chance he'd guess wrong given that, again, this is a chord he's never seen before. So not only he would he try to add a seventh somewhere in the accompaniment, but he'd very possibly end up with the wrong one.
Anyhow, it reasons that like this that cause me to advise people not to invwnt chord symbols when other more conventional chord symbols will likely yield better results. As someone who has arranged or edited literally hundeds of charts for inclusion in fakebooks (jazz,blues, rock), I can tell you there is no way the publisher would use a symbol like Csus#4. But of course, it's your chart, so do what you want, and again, I'm already planning on adding this to the lists.
In reply to First, while this is an by Marc Sabatella
the real issue is, "Why the new, "unconventional" symbol"? Is there actually a logical reason? In the case of a sus chord, sus stands for suspension, achieving a resolution of tension by a semitone step in major and a tone step in minor. There is a logical, musical reason to call it a sus chord. Otherwise it is not a suspension. I would appreciate it if you would make the case that this resolves in the manner of a suspension, or clear up my musical confusion if i am not accurate. I am prepared to change.
I write my scores to be as clear as possible to another player, so that the player can most easily replicate what the score says. I can't waste time in rehearsal explaining some obscure symbol that can be more easily understood if it is represented by a more common symbol.
Also, an unconventional symbol demands a series of logical steps requiring trained musicians to parse out the new meaning, allowing for more errors. In a Jazz situation, where everyone is working at such a high level, sight reading (if notation is used at all) at speed, this is asking for trouble. I resist the cluttering up of logic, myself, and I campaign against it.
I admire the work that goes into this program trying to meet every request, and I understand that there can be artistic graphic reasons for unusual effect, but surely, the whole point of notation is the transfer of information in the most clear manner. Again, I look for logic.
If I want a particular voicing that cannot be made clear by symbols, it is a simple matter to actually notate the voicing, removing all ambiguity.
I feel that just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done.
Regards,