Polyrhythm

• Dec 7, 2013 - 09:22

Dear all at musescore
I am a composer and a long time (I start in 1991) Finale frustrated user.
I am very interested to leave Finale
I would know if Musescore is capable to manage different time signature together.

To be more clear ( english is not my first language) i pose a basic question

It is possible to have one staff in 6/8, below a staff in 9/8, below a staff in 5/4 .
The first two staff will have a common bar each 3 bars of the 6/8
The first and the third will have a common bar each 5 bars of the 6/8

Finale can't do it, and I suppose that Midi is the problem

thanks for your time
Lucio Garau


Comments

In reply to by Shoichi

Shoichi, there appear to be 6 beats (eighth notes) or 3 beats (quarter notes) in the 5/4 measure in your example so I do not think that it really is representing 5/4 time. You could do simpler polyrhythm such as 4/4 over 12/8 but you would still need to adjust the notes to display correctly (essentially set the 12/8 stave up as 4/4, label it as 12/8, enter triplets then remove the triplet labels).

In reply to by underquark

...regarding the 5/4 measure.
Anyway, based on the original poster's mention of 9/8, 6/8, and 5/4 time signatures - the strong beat (#1) of all the different time signatures won't coincide until after 90 beats.

@underquark - FWIW, I was working on the attachment so I missed all the recent conversation. I do agree that keeping things simple is best... Regards.

Attachment Size
Polyrhythm staves examle.mscz 4.18 KB

In reply to by Jm6stringer

Dear Jm6stringer
thanks
after reading your example I decide to spend some days using musescore
i have now some trivial question

- what is, in your exemple the real time signature?
- Where I can find a tutorial?
- It works on Mavericks, I have it on my laptop

my best
Lucio

A picture of what you are trying to do would help.

Version 2.0 of MuseScore will allow for different time signatures on different staves, but the bar lines will still appear in the same places for all staves, and there is only limited support for different layout options within these bars. You can download an experimental nightly build via the Downloads link in the menu at right of this page and see for yourself if you think it will work.

In my experience, trying to have different time signatures is almost never worth the effort. All it does is lead to rehearsal difficulties. Musicians in my experience are better at playing rhythms that happen to cross bar lines at odd places than they are at figuring out issues like which measure numbers in which part line up with each other, conduct or follow conducting in simultaneous multiple meters, etc. Not saying there would *never* be a time when it might be the best way, but I'd say none of the times I've ever seen anyone try it were more successful than simply notating everything in the same meter would have been.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Dear All
at first thanks for your replies
I post a simple exemple of what I want to do,
esempio poliritmia.pdf
in fact I want to be free to write more complex rythms together ( 11 and 13 and so on)
I have a different experience from Marc Sabatella, I understand his reason but in my humble experience I have a little contemporary ensemble and we have done some concerts in the past playing with different rhythms, not simple but is possible to arrive to play it. Traditional music players in Indian repertoire, or in gamelan music do that but do not notate.
I can notate it by hand and i am interested to find a way to do it with a computer notation software.
So I am very very interested in musescore. A very interesting thing is that musescore is opensource.
Someone can tell me if this feature can be done or it is impossible to realize because the architecture basically do not allow this.
thanks again for your time
Lucio

Attachment Size
esempio poliritmia.pdf 13.66 KB

In reply to by Luciog

This is a perfect example of the type of music I am convinced most musicians would find easier to play if you simply put them in the same time signature, for exactly the reasons I stated above. Have you tried it both ways and compared to see which went better? When I have, it always went better with consistent barlines & measure numbers. Musicians did fine with rhythms that happened to cross the barlines, but there was never any way to recover the amount of rehearsal time wasted trying to deal with the confusion created by mismatched measure numbers and barlines.

Anyhow, no, MuseScore doesn't allow this. You could fake it by hiding the real barlines and adding new ones as graphic elements.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

And I am sure that this exemple can be played good in the same time signature.
But please considere what happens if you start doing some tuplets, your solutions become less pratical because tuplets over the bar are very unfriendly
I understand your position about most musicians, but I am looking at other musicians ...
I am used to fake Finale adding graphic barlines but I want a better solution.
If someone reply to last part of my previous post about code, I can evaluate the time to realize the modification to the software...

Other solution is PWGL but need a lot of time to learn it and can not replace Finale for part extraction

thanks
Lucio

In reply to by Luciog

Here is an example of how it might look "faked" in MuseScore 2.0:

polymeter.png

The actual meter is set to 6/4, but I used Time Signature Properties to change the displayed value to 3/4 for the top staff and 4/4 for the bottom. Then I hid the bar lines I didn't want to see (click, "v"), and then I dragged new barlines to the notes I wanted the barlines to appear in front of.

Attachment Size
polymeter.png 6.09 KB

Go to my example on the musescore.com and search for "Luny & Groovy Rhythms"
(http://musescore.com/user/116585/scores/127966#)
You can download in mscz or xml format

On page 3 you will see how I do 5 over 2 in a single time signature.
The trick is to divide a note by the counterrhytm using [Control + the number to divide the note],

Example placing 5 over 4:

  • - Set the time signature in the bar to 4/4 and enter four notes
  • - For another instrument, or for drums for another drum, enter a whole note (breve)
  • - Select the whole note and click [Control + 5]
    The breve is subdivided into 5 notes
  • Attachment Size
    Luniesl.png 55.05 KB

    I'd agree with Sabatella if I were the composer, but you can't change history. I'm entering Martinu's 1951 flute/piano sonata for practice purposes. He used 4/4 for the flute against 12/8 for the piano in the passage shown in the attached photo. It would really be helpful to be able to get an accurate computer rendition of this section. Here's another opportunity for MuseScore to be better than the commercial packages!

    Attachment Size
    photo.JPG 1.34 MB

    In reply to by skaufman

    Actually, your example above is a different and much simpler case than what we were discussing previously. When mixing 4/4 and 12/8, the bar lines still occur in the same places. That much MuseScore "already" supports (by which I mean, it's already implemented in the development builds that will eventually become MuseScore 2.0). So if your favorite commercial package doesn't support this, consider them beat :-).

    But mixing time signatures in a way that requires barlines to occur in different places - that will continue to require the sort of workarounds described above, and I'll continue to advise composers against notating music this way :-)

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