Annoying blue bar and cramped space to edit.
I'm probably doing something wrong here somewhere. But I'm finding it very hard to work with a basic piano score. First of all the measures are so tiny that there's no space to place the notes accurately. I went into Style and enlarged the measure and they're fine ... but ONLY as long as there are notes in them. I still have to start each new bar in a tiny little space.
And then there's an annoying blue bar ... which blocks off more space. I'm working crammed up against the blue bar and over a rest. There's no space. I must be doing something wrong. Is there any way I can enlarge my work/meaasure size and get rid of that bar .. as well as another arrow which pops up.
It's very hard to work with, so I assume I've missed somethiing.
When I do get a score finished, it's beautiful. I download to PDF like a dream and with PDFescape, I can even add graphics to fill empty space at the end. I'm delighted with the end result ....but getting there is sheer misery.
Thanks for any help or suggestions you can give me ...
Comments
The blue bar is the cursor, indicating where in the score your input will show up.
In reply to The blue bar is the cursor, by Jojo-Schmitz
I know it indicates where in the score my input will show up ... but it obscures the staff lines and is the most enormous cursor I've ever dealt with. It is appropriately titled ... because I curse it every time I try to position my notes. Using keyboard keys is easier but I need practice. Horrible feature. I was hoping that I was merely not too bright and hadn't discovered an obvious feature to turn it off. Alas ... it remains. Surely I can't be the only user who is frustrated with this. My old quill pen and parchment is easier .... ( trying for levity here so I don't attack my computer)
In reply to The annoying blue bar by Nikki Ty
No sure what annoys you, here it looks like this:
![screen.png]( "screen.png")
In reply to No sure what annoys you, here by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes Nikki, please take a screen shot (like Jojo did) so we can see what's wrong.
In reply to No sure what annoys you, here by Jojo-Schmitz
This is it. Exactly. Really cramped-looking.
In reply to Annoying blue bar by Nikki Ty
But you can enter only one note at a time, There's a *ton* of room to the right of the blue bar. Maybe you are thinking you have to squeeze the note in between the barline and the cursor? You don't. Generally, all note input is to the *right* of the cursor. Except after you've already started entering notes in a measure, you can add notes to the already-entered notes to form chords - but at that point, there is now obviously plenty of room to do that, since you will be clicking directly on the space occupied by the ntoes you are adding too.
So I think you must still be misunderstanding something about how this all works.
In reply to The annoying blue bar by Nikki Ty
How do you enter the notes ? mouse ? keyboard ?
I use keyboard and am not at all bothered by the blue mark.
In reply to How do you enter the notes ? by robert leleu
I confess that I've been using the mouse ... I will try the keyboard. I had trouble with it because my scores are often chords and extend several octaves.
If your score is newly created and empty, (i.e. filled with whole measure rests) each system will indeed contain measures spaced more closely than they will be spaced once notes are entered into them. The empty measures 'stretch' to accommodate the entered notes.
If you 'feel cramped' and need 'more room' I suggest the following:
1. Open this attachment, 'Piano.mscz' (which is an empty score)
2. Use menu item: Plugins / Break Every X Measures - then hit OK to get 'more room'.
There is also:
http://musescore.org/en/handbook/break-or-spacer
If measures are full of notes and you need more room there is:
http://musescore.org/en/handbook/layout-and-formatting#Layout%3A-Add-Mo…
To add an image (graphic):
http://musescore.org/en/handbook/image
Regards.
In reply to Tiny measures? by Jm6stringer
Thanks so much. You've nailed the problem perfectly for me. The plug in gave me a wonderful choice of nice generous bars to work with ... looks like a standard manuscript. I had problems with "orphan bars" at the end until another forum post offered the solution to that as well
And the prize for me ... the ability to add graphics. I've been switching between PDFescape and MuseScore and my image files. You've saved me hours of extra work. Thank you again.
Zoom in. You probably don't need to see all the bars. Some subtle things are quite difficult without zooming in. Ctrl+, depending on what operating system you are working on. Or on the tool bar.
In reply to Zoom by cwhysall
Thanks for the tip. I'd forgotten about the keyboard option to zoom. A great feature for details
I'm guessing you are trying to use the mouse to enter notes - clicking directly into the score. This is not a very efficient way of going abut it. See Note entry and/or watch the tutorial video on note entry from the musescore.org main page to see how to use the keyboard to enter notes - and then you'll appreciate the blue bar (it's the cursor, showing where the next note you type will appear, as others have said).
If for some reason you must click rather than type, realize it's never going to be all that efficient, but you can still improve things somewhat by zooming in as suggested by others. You could also insert line breaks (click a barline and hit Enter) to force fewer measures per line, which will give you more room for clicking. But by default, MuseScore gives you only as much room as is actually needed to display an empty measure. It cannot and should not display empty measures bigger just because you might want to click in them, or else measures you want to actually remain empty would display too large when you go to print as well.
In reply to I'm guessing you are trying by Marc Sabatella
Thanks to all posters who answered my question so promptly and so generously. I have now many options to make things much easier. Use the keyboard instead of mouse. Zoom in. Use the plugin to extend measure size, add graphics easily. I worked forty years ago with expensive manuscript paper .. these miracles of technology weren' available then. And I'm just locating them now.
The generosity and kindness of so many people encouraging others is perhaps even more important than anything else. As motivation to contribute and be part of this movement which I believe will change the world. Muse Score IMSLP GIMP Open Office Create Space. Khan Academy ( getting a free college education in math here).
Many thanks to everyone. Nikki
PS. The curmudgeon in me still suggests an improvement to the blue "cursed" bar. Perhaps move the rests so they don't cling to the edge of the bar ... that would give a little extra space to input notes while keeping the rests alive and well.
In reply to Thanks by Nikki Ty
Hi Nikki, glad thing are better.
The Blue bar is where, in time, the note to be added will be once it is added. :)
In reply to Thanks by Nikki Ty
The problem isn't the blue bar - as mentioned, it really needs to be there, and it,s pnly a coulle of pixels wider anyhow. It takes up essentially no space, and in no way interferes with the ability to click. You can click directly on the bar if you like. The problem - to the extent there is one - is how small empty measures are by default. You'll be happy to hear that default has changed for the next major release - they'll be a little wider.
But still, I'm not really understand how even mouse entry is adversely affected by the relatively small size of empty measures. I assume you are entering notes left to right, and the measure expands correctly as you add notes. So there should always be plenty of room for the next note to the right of the ine you just added - always around half an inch. Maybe if you explained step by exactly what you are doing, maybe posting a screen shot, we could see if there is something you are doing wrong.
BTW, keyboard input works fine with large chords. Shift+letter adds the note to the chord, Ctrlup/down changes octave of the most recently added note.
In reply to The problem isn't the blue by Marc Sabatella
You're quite right ... when I examined everything again ... pretending I was just starting with the program ... the blue bar IS an essential guide and isn't unduly large.
But what is confusing and counter-intuitive is the way the cursor operates. There is a blue "ghost" note attached to it and when you move it into position, the cursor with its ghost note jumps to the first rest ( which is crammed against that blue bar) and then when you add another note, it leaps to the next rest. It seems as if one is required to work OVER those rests. Or looks that way to anyone starting with the program.
Now you are quite right ... and the cursor CAN be moved anywhere to the right of the blue bar. But why the unnecessary blue ghost note ... and why the definite positioning on those rests. I would never have figured out that I could move the cursor independently if you hadn't explained it to me.
Why not scrap the blue ghost note entirely ... and let the cursor move smoothly without stopping at the rests. Then the system would work perfectly ... and intuitively, with enough space. When a newbie sees it stopped at a rest, we assume we have to work right there.
When you explained that I could move the cursor "independently" .. then the system works just fine. But I have to fight against that "positioning" on the rests. The cursor is programmed to definitely stop at the rests.
The problem of the tight empty measures is a simple one. The "Plugin" offers four measures to the line.which works perfectly. What we have now as a default reminds me of my first "word processor" ... a horrendously expensive typewriter ... which offered me a single LINE of text at a time.
When you have the visual of a full page ...whether music manuscript or ordinary paper, the whole process of creating is more natural and intuitive Wordpress and OpenOffice give wonderful full editable pages. Why can't Muse Score simply offer a full editable page of music manuscript with three or four measures per line and then let the editing be done from there. To sit down with a full page ready to be written is easy and intuitive.
I can only assume there must be some technical reason for the cluster of tiny tiny measures which only expand when you wrestle the cursor into the next bar ... which then obligingly expands with a little disconcerting jolt. I felt like I was hovering on a precipice as I work.
With these two tweaks ... dumping the ghost note and smoothing the cursor motion ... and having the default be a simple full page manuscript ... the whole experience of Muse Score would be overwhelmingly positive.
But even as it stands now, I marvel at the beautiful music scores coming out of my printer and the miracle of being able to do with a screen and a mouse things which years ago required pen and printed blank scores .... It's a fabulous site. And while I quibble and kvetch ... I still think it's the best music notation score available and thank the creators SO very much.
Nikki
P.S. And thanks for the keyboard tips as well. Great for chords.
In reply to The cursed Cursor with its "Ghost" note ... by Nikki Ty
Morning, Nikki,
I can see that one thing that is causing you to have the view you have, or have had, is the leap in concept when you move from paper to the screen. You aren't alone in this, we all have to go through it. When developing a computer program it is a major first hurdle, realising the limitations of paper and what freedoms the computer provides.
Thus on paper the 32 bars, for example, you might be intending to write cannot be marked out because who knows how many notes you are going to write? Unless the manuscript paper is determined that there will be four fixed size bars per line.
So you've found the plug-in that will force that, but still the bars do not have to be a fixed size. They will adjust automatically to the number of notes you write. And this is exactly what a human music typesetter would do.
So when you create empty bars, MuseScore, and every notation program I've tried (all of them, probably!) fills the bars with a full bar rest and the bar will be reduced to fit.
Now what I'm coming to now will shock you – in the next version of MuseScore, as you can in Sibelius and Finale, you can abandon the page concept altogether as you write. You can simply write one long system of staves that goes on forever. You don't need to worry about how it fits on the page, and neither should you, until you've finished writing. That is the typesetter's problem.
It is different to the visual arts, where you are likely to know that your piece has to fit some pre-determined format. Music doesn't have to fit a page format. So why are you worrying about the size of those empty bars you haven't yet filled?
The ghost note that bothers you is only to show you where the note is going to land. Very useful on leger lines. And there can only be rests following unless you want MuseScore to play guess the tune! MuseScore naturally fills each bar up according to the time signature. All the notation programs do that.
I think in time you will realise how limiting and difficult it is working with paper. How do you slip that extra bar in?
In reply to The cursed Cursor with its "Ghost" note ... by Nikki Ty
To be clear: the blue bar is the cursor for *keyboard* input; the "ghost" note you refer to is the cursor for *mouse* input. The two have nothing to do with each other. This is just as it is in any program really. As I type this response into my web browser, a vertical bar cursor accompanies the text I type showing where the next character I type will appear. But as I move my mouse, a totally different cursor follows the mouse around - shaped like an arrow normally, but turning into an "I-beam" if the cursor happens to be within a text area. The mouse cursor shows me what will be affected if I were to click at any given moment, and it changes shape as necessary to given me an idea of what the actual effect of clicking will be. Every program you've ever used probably does more or less the same thing. MuseScore is no different. The blue line is the keyboard cursor, showing where the next note you type will appear; the ghost note is the mouse cursor, showing you where a note will be added if you click and also what *kind* of note it will be.
I quite honestly do not understand how you can possibly see the keyboard cursor or mouse cursor as a problem. They are completely essential to the operation of virtually any computer program in the world. Without the keyboard cursor, you would have no idea where the next note you *typed* would appear. Without the mouse cursor, you would have no idea where the next note you *clicked* would appear. How on earth could you get anything done? You *need* both cursors in MuseScore, just as you need them in virtually every computer program in the world that accepts both typed and mouse input. If you aren't using mouse input, simply move the mouse pointer out of the way.
Anyhow, even with mouse entry, the expectation is that you would work left to right., That indeed means you will generally be placing notes directly on top of the rest that used to be in that spot. Because that's what you are actually doing - changing the rest that otherwise would have occurred at that time position into a note. You aren't supposed to avoid those rests; quite the contrary. You should simply enter new notes directly on top of them.
So it still seems to me you must be fundamentally misunderstanding something. Entering notes by mouse may be slower than by keyboard, but there is nothing even remotely awkward or difficult about it. Click in score, move mouse a little to the right, click again, a little more to the right, click again - everything works completely smoothly.
In reply to To be clear: the blue bar is by Marc Sabatella
Here's a quick video I made to show how mouse entry works. Maybe you'll be able to see what you're doing wrong. I certainly don't see anything jumpy or weird about how the cursors work, nor does the keyboard cursor or rests get in my way, nor does the width of the measures affect anything at all:
http://youtu.be/wQqzfhe9q9s
I will agree that mouse entry is a bit fiddly in terms of positioning the mouse *vertically* - getting it on just the right line or space. Here, the fact that the mouse cursor shows the outline of the note is invaluable. I can see *exactly* what note I am adding. If it changed to just a pointer, I'd never know for sure if I was about to add a note to a line or to the space above/below. It would be almost impossible to use. As it is, it's just a bit fiddly, but not because of the width of the measures. At no time is that even the slightest problem
Of course keyboard entry would have gone many times quicker. I can type "C C G G A A 6 G 5 F F E E D D 6 C" in about the time it took to enter the first measure using the mouse.
In reply to Here's a quick video I made by Marc Sabatella
I'm doing exactly what's on the video. But since I'm not using the "easy" notes ... the ones on the upper or lower part of the staves ... I run into those stationary rests much more frequently. When I input a B C or D in the middle register, the war begins. If I hover on the bottom of the stave the problem isn't so glaring. Showing the input of the middle range notes ... and particularly smaller value notes would be closer to the normal usage.
I don't see that the blue note outline shows me the note value or anything beyond its position ... which is hard to ascertain because it's so fuzzy. Changing the note to a simple red opaque dot ( since the fuzzy one is only a marker anyway) would make the whole procedure much easier. The incoming note is at war with the existing rest ... and is too frail to dominate as it should.
I can see the problems here. Originally I wondered why the note wasn't merely placed on the tip of the cursor ... but obviously that would impact accuracy. The more clearly visible note would make a huge difference in visibility and would allow it to push the rest into the background ... which is where it's destined anyway if we're going to replace it with a note.
And this format isn't easy for a PIANO score. It's cramped. I can see it being used for the more vertical orcherstral scores more easily. But no piano score is written so tightly.
In reply to Video by Nikki Ty
The mouse cursor shows the actual notehead that will be added - the filled in one of the the hollow on. And it snaps to either a space or a line, so it is always clear exactly where the note will be added. An ordinary arrow cursor can't do that.
I'm still not understand in what way the "cramped" measure gets in the way. As my video clearly shows, the measure expands as you add notes. And there is no "war" with rests - you can completely ignore their presence. They have to be there becuase MuseScore needs there to be 4 (or whatever) beats per measure, and it has no idea if you are done adding notes or not, but as my video shows, the rests turn into notes as soon as you click. There simply is no conflict at all that I can see. Perhaps if you described more specifically - exactly, step by step, - what you are trying to do, and possibly showing also showing a picture of the intended result, maybe we could help you see what you are doing wrong. Right now, though, I just can't guess. Note entry is always exactly as easy as shown in my video..
In reply to The mouse cursor shows the by Marc Sabatella
I understnad the function of the cursor .. that the tip of it indicates the note placement .... and it is necessarily small because the staff lines are by nature small.
But the cramped measure is clear on my inset. Very clear. That's a lot of activity crammed around the blue bar ( which I know is essential) Your video is not showing the problem because you've used the "easy"notes ... which are those in the lower register. Using the middle register notes and perhaps writing them in multiple smaller-value notes will highlight the problem very very well. A handful of notes on the bottom of the staff lines doesn't illustrate the problem, it avoids it. And that blue note needs some blood in its veins so it's more visible.
i am not doing anything "wrong" ... I am merely struggling with a system which seems unduly cumbersome.
A little honest disclaimer at this point. To be fair, I am a professional digital artist ... you can see my work at www.NikkiTyTomkins.wordpress.com. I work with incredibly detailed photographs, dissected and manipulated into "brushes" ... I work at 300 dpi ... which means I'm counting pixels the size of grains of sand. And I work in multiple layers ... sometimes as many as seven. So details are my milieu. And I'm obsessive too ... which compounds the problem.
So I admit that I may be super critical. I also must confess that my knowledge of the actual programming is minimal so I may well be expecting things which aren't possible. And so I do indeed apologize if that is so.
Here's what I'm working on tonight for a student. I won't even begin to describe the horrors of those triplets ... starting a measure curls my hair.
But your "voice" system is absolutely superb. Clear and clean and easy.
In reply to The middle register is difficult to write by Nikki Ty
...looking at it this way, Nikki: you wouldn't try to play the piano with a mouse, would you? What you are trying to do is like telling your pupil to play that with one finger. Impossible.
Many years ago when I was developing a user interface (this was before we had decent windowing systems), it was explained to me that a user interface needed to provide for three levels of expertise: raw beginner, intermediate and expert.
Mouse input for everything is really for raw beginner in this case. Learn a few bits of keyboard input and you move to intermediate level. Abandon the mouse and you're an expert.
The music you've shown would take a few seconds on the (computer) keyboard.
But one thing to note: MuseScore will always enter the next note next to the blue (for voice 1) cursor, regardless of the following rests shown.
I do have a friend who I've tried to persuade to abandon appear for MuseScore. I've seen him struggle with the same thing as yourself because he wants to use just the mouse. I realised it is because he is used to applying pen to paper and he sees the mouse as being close to that. You have to abandon that concept.
I often think it is useful to turn history on its head. Would notation programs work as they do if computers had come before paper, or would they have developed a completely different paradigm? Probably.
In reply to How about... by cwhysall
Yikes ,,,,, THANK YOU. I needed a bit of a shake-up. I've been so intensely involved with my graphics that I didn't make the reverse connection. That exceptional mouse skill doesn't help with MuseScore. I have to admit that I type blind since the letters are all worn off my keyboard. So when I was looking up and down from keyboard to monitor to check notes, I had a mixture going on ... some mouse and some keyboard. And still had that nasty cursor.
I just typed some notes entirely with keyboard. And that hateful cursor is gone. Without the cursor, it doesn't really matter that the rest is practically grafted onto the blue bar/cursor. The double cursors were the problem.
I still can't undertand why there isn't a small space .. enough for a note width ... between the blue cursor and those rests. I surmise it has something to do with the programming which apparently requires that the note be placed on top of the rest. If you add 16th notes, corresponding rests leap into position for each next note. As something unavoidable in programming, it becomes more tolerable and ways have to be found to work around it.
Obviously the keyboard is the way to go.
Once again I do thank you. You made the connection between graphics/mouse very clear. Alas here's another skill I must master. Just get really good at one and another looms ahead of me to frustrate ... and challenge me.
Now I'll go make some letters and tape them onto my keys,
In reply to Good angle by Nikki Ty
The reason the is no space between a the cursor and the rest that follows os so you are jot fooled into thinking it would be possible or logical to try to insert a note there. The rest shows the very next position at which you may enter a note. When you enter a note, it *replaces* the rest, so it makes no sense to try to squeeze it in before the rest.
Consider the picture you posted a few responses ago. It shows a quarter note "E" already entered into the measure, with the cursor just to the right, followed by a quarter rest and a half redt. The quarter note is on beat one and it lasts exactly one beat - taking all the time up until beat two. The quarter rest is on beat two. There is no musical room between the quarter note and the quarter rest, so you can't possibly insert a new note there. All you can do is *replace* the quarter rest on beat two with a note. So you are supposed to place your mouse cursor directly on beat two - directly on top of the rest.
Now, your comment about piano scores generally being *printed* with more space between notes than orchestral scores may be true, although I find it varies from publisher to publisher. My Schirmer editions are spaced about as tightly as MuseScore's default spacing, but other books I have are looser. Luckily, this is completely customizable in MuseScore. If you like your notes spaced further apart, go to Style / Edit General Style / Measure and change the Spacing setting. The default value of 1.2 is a but tight for my tastes as well, so I often use 1.3 or even 1.4 as the situation demands. Or I simply insert line breaks where I want and let MuseScore respace the music me then.
In reply to The reason the is no space by Marc Sabatella
After all lot of helpful suggestions on this forum ... and a lot of fiddling around on my part to work out the 'mechanism' of that cramped input style, the answer is crystal clear. It may not be pleasing to anyone hoping for a better format, but facts are facts.
The explanation that everything is fine and that it's all logical ... plus a video which avoided the middle register ... was merely window washing. The simple truth is what you've explained here .....
The note MUST be placed ON the rest to activate it. That's the computer program.
That's it right there.
And there's nothing that can be done about it. That's okay with me, To be fair, I'm an obsessive tweaker ... my pride and joy is my blogsite www.TheGimpWimp.wordpress.com ... in which I spent months creating a template to use in GIMP ... forcing a graphic program into a chart/business card format, something no one else has done. The overwhelming gratitude that site evoked stuns me.
So I admit my first reaction was ... good grief ... this is dreadful. Now I'm using it more fluently, with the mouse being gradually related to the edge of the computer table. But the input is jarring and nothing can change that. But if it's a technical issue which has no other solution, then it's acceptable.
You are quite right about the excellent customization options ... which have never been a problem for me. Heck I can have two huge bars a line if I'm having a claustrophobic fit. My grumblings are over the initial experience of opening a new score .. and for a newbie ... what opens. As I've said before ... offering a line of large measures and perhaps having them expand a couple of bars ahead of input would make it much to work with, It's like driving over the Simplon pass and hoping you'll make the next curve.
And the rest of the program is excellent. I love the easy "voicing" ... and I have no problems. The scores print beautifully.
Thanks SO much for your patience and persistence and not simply tossing me and my kvetching under the bus/tram.
PS ... your "Claire de Lune" is gorgeous ....
In reply to How about... by cwhysall
Strange typo. Annoying word correction!
In reply to The middle register is difficult to write by Nikki Ty
I've already responded to your concern about notes on the middle of the staff versus toward the bottom of the staff. There simply is no difference whatsoever in the process. You seem to have this idea you need to try to avoid the rest for some reasons, but that's *not* true and in fact it counter to thew whole idea of what MuseScore is actually doing. You are replacing a rest with a note, so indeed, you are *supposed* to click directly on top of the rest you are replacing (or at least, in the same horizontal position). So I think whatever you are trying to do to try to avoid the rest is what you are doing "wrong".
I'm also not quite sure what your issue is with triplets. I guess if you are using only the mouse, constantly going back to the Notes / Tuplets menu would be a drag. So even if you enter the notes by clicking, you *definitely* want to sue the Ctrl+3 shortcut for selecting triplet as the duration, Also the other duration shortcuts. A set of three eighth note triplets is entered by typing "5 Ctrl+3" then clicking the three notes. Repeat as desired. I do agree that it is a drag to need to keep pressing "5 Ctrl+3" before every set when entering a long stream of triplets; a "sticky" mode for tuplets is a common request I too would like to see implemented some day. But it has nothing to do with anything being cramped, nor does it have anything to do with the blue bar.
I definitely don't understand what you mean about starting a new measure. You don't need to do anything special to start a new measure - just keep entering notes left to right measure to measure until you are done. So again, I suspect you are doing something wrong if you you are doing anything whatsoever special to start a new bar. MuseScore automatically moves to the next bar when you finish entering notes in one bar.
See the following video. It demonstrates all three of these points. It shows that entering notes on the middle of the staff is absolutely in all respects exactly the same as entering them on the bottom of the staff. It shows that entering triplets is not particularly difficult. And it shows that MsueScore automatically moves to the next bar when necessary during note entry - no special action required on your part:
http://youtu.be/sieQYruxd9o
So again, I have to assume you are doing something differently, because I don't see how the above could be considered a "horror" nor does anything about seem hair-curling :-)
In reply to I've already responded to by Marc Sabatella
Obviously the triplets have nothing to do with the blue bar or the cramping. A separate issue entirely.
The triplets do require a bit of a learning curve. First to highlight the bar, then select the note value being sure to use the value of the entire triplet not its individual components ( which takes a minute's consideration for a paper person) .. then switch to N and then press Ctrl and 3. THEN finally enter the first note of the group. Then while mopping brow, realize this whole thing must be repeated for the next five pages of score. True you do move automatically ahead ... but then you have to remember to SWITCH the note value BACK to the composite value, press Ctrl and 3 .. and you get another measly triplet. Not exactly streamlined.
Now I know this is a technical problem. But it's cumbersome. The idea of a "sticky" mode is a great one and I hope can be incorporated.
I'm doing exactly what you show in your video. But there's one huge difference. When I finish a triplet I have to go back up to that darned note menu, locate the triplet sub-menu and then the last drop down menu which finally gives me my triplet. Again. I have to repeat this journey after each triplet. Whereas in your video you seem to merely toggle between the quarter note and the eight note and never return to that note menu and the triplet. But you get a new triplet just by apparently toggling. That makes a huge difference.
Why the 5 Ctrl+3 ... I've used Ctrl+3 does the 5 give me the option of not repeatedly typing in the triplet values? of course if you don't have to go back up to that menu, it's much faster.
(The position of the notes is irrelevant to the triplets. I can see that. It's merely relevant to the input over the rests in crowded bars ... and that's only my opinion as I see it graphically) )
In reply to Triplets by Nikki Ty
My video starts out by going to toolbar to display the tooltip so you can see that "5" is the shortcut for selecting quarter note, then does the same for the tuplet menu so you can see that Ctrl+3 is the shortcut for the triplet menu item. Once you know this fact, you never need to touch the toolbar of tuplet menu again - just use those two shortcuts. "5" to select the quarter note (total length of triplet), followed by Ctrl+3 to turn it into a triplet.
So that's exactly what I did in in the video. I typed "5 Crl+3", then clicked the three notes I wanted (although faster still would be to simply type "E G C"). I repeated that exact process - 5, Ctrl+3, click, three times - for each triplet. The "sticky mode" I mentioned would save the time it takes to type "5 Ctrl+3", bu as you can see, that's already a lot easier the toolbar and menu all the time.
There are other useful shortcuts you might consider. For instance, enter one measure full of triplets, then copy and paste it as desired. Then just go back and change the pitches. Really, though, if your piece is mostly triplets, you might consider putting in 9/8 instead. Also, in general, I definitely recommend reading the Handbook and watching the tutorial videos; there are a lot of useful tips that might not be obvious otherwise.
In reply to My video starts out by going by Marc Sabatella
I had a little problem with this ... I went back to your video and the "off screen" action made perfect sense. So I followed the 5 ... and added Ctrl+3. I got into a terrible mess as this produced a string of 16th notes. Then I got angry and started to punch the keys a little more firmly in absolute exasperation and presto ....suddenly it worked. Maybe I had some cookie crumbs under the keyboard or something. But these two tips make a HUGE difference in input. Now if they could just come up with something easier that the Ctrl+3 span, they'd be in clover.
Thanks SO much for your patience ... persistence ... and help.
( I have another corker on the way but will give you surcease for a day or so ... LOL)
In reply to Hooray .. by Nikki Ty
If you are ot in note entry mode and the cursor is currently on an eighth note when you press Ctrl+3, MuseScore will dutifully split that into triplets as well, creating sixteenth note triplets. Or, if while in note entry mode you have the eighth note icon selected on the toolbar - which will be the case while entering a group of triplets - then it will also subdivide that in to thirds. So most likely you were either note in note entry mode or you forgot to press 5, or you accidentally pressed Ctrl+3 twice in a row. In any event, as with most else in MuseScore, immediately pressing Ctrl+Z to undo would have gotten you right back where you were.
If you don't like Ctrl+3 as the shortcut for triplets, ypu are welcome to customize to whatever you like via Edit / Preferences / Shortcuts. The default was chosen more ease of remembering - and consistency with the shortcuts for duplets, quadruplets, quintuplets, etc - that for ease of typing.
In reply to If you are ot in note entry by Marc Sabatella
I simply couldn't figure out shat was wrong. I input several lines yesterday to test and the whole thing was "buggy". I know the mathematical ratios ... that was the first hitch I learned which I began this odyssey. I'd have the quarter note in situ in entry mode ... then when I clicked entry it would show a 16th on the tool bar. It would jump. And nothing happened. I suspected a big but decided not to carry it any further. I tested it probably twenty or thrity times, WIth no consistency whatsoever, The select bar ... choose note value ... Entry mode .. and "presto" triplets simply didn't happen. Sometimes if I had one set of triplets I could get three more without a hitch, But I could see it was "buggy".
Anyway ... I followed your advice to change the Ctrl+C ... I chose the nicely centered "J" on my keyboard. And it works consistently and like a charm. So there must have been a bug in MY computer ... which is one of four and the one I used most often. Changing the shortcut solved the problem instantly. ( But I sure as heck don't think Ctrl+C is a convenient shortcut ... it's a big awkward finger spread. Triplets are much more common than any other composite ... my "J" is perfect. And hadn't been claimed in my list for another shortcut ...LOL)
Thanks again. I can continue writing Gigues .... which are my favorite rhythm
In reply to Thank You So much by Nikki Ty
Why write in triplets? 9/8 every time for jigs (however you want to spell it), surely?
In reply to Why triplets? by cwhysall
Good catch. However I'm writing for very young students and keeping everything simple in format. It's far easier to explain a triplet than the odd 9/8 signature which hardly ever appears after the Baroque era. And a lively little dance with the triplet pulse catches their attention. See my Thehappypianoprofessor.wordpress.com for some of my tips and lessons for teachers ... and their students. It's my pet project ( I have a zoo of those damned pet projects ... LOL)
In reply to Jigs and gigues and triplets by Nikki Ty
To be taught that Slip Jigs are in 3/4 triplets then never again to see such a beast would confuse me completely. The emphasis in a Slip Jig often occurs on the third beat. How do you explain that with triplets? Doing it your way the underlying beat is wrong.
But we are way off topic now.
In reply to Confusing by cwhysall
I must confess I've never danced a jig ... and my familiarity is limited to the lovely suites by Bach and Zipoli. And they do indeed use the 9/8 and even a 12/8. Even though their harpsichords and clavichords would have produced an even pulse. I stand corrected here and perhaps will merely change the title ... which should satisfy all parties.l
I'm chuckling a bit here .... because had I thought about it and realized that MuseScore handles 9/8 perfectly well, I could have saved myself the agony of their triplet input. But I can teach early students triplets much more easily with the visual effect of the triplet bar.
So the Gigue will oblige and will be duly reincarnated under another title
In reply to Jigs and gigues and triplets by Nikki Ty
All my piano (and guitar) students understood compound time and how it related to simple time by the time they were capable of learning a piece of that complexity. It's a mistake to underrate children's ability to understand such concepts.
Regarding triplets, however, there is a trick you may like to use when entering a lot of them which I found most useful when entering the first movement of Rheinberger's 4th Organ Sonata.....
In MuseScore the R key can be used to repeat an operation, and here is the key to the trick.
When you have a large number of triplets to enter, enter the first in the usual way with 5 then CTRL 3. Now, come out of Note entry mode, select the first rest with the mouse and then SHIFT select the rest of the triplet. Pressing R will then give you another 3 triple quaver rests. Keep pressing R until you have the number of triplet rests that you need, then you can enter note entry mode and add the notes.
HTH
Michael
In reply to All my piano (and guitar) by ChurchOrganist
I'm actually writing very very simple music for absolute beginners .... children's very first year. There is a regrettable "donut hole" in music for that early stage with a lot of silly childish titles and woefully awful "trendy" dissonances. The child wants harmony ... wants to know when something sounds "wrong". Over the years I've noticed that one or two pieces in every primer were "favorites" ... very noticeably so. And they were melodic and worked on very very few basic repeated chords. Like our ukulele here in Hawaii ... a few simple chords were the key. So I'm working oin filling that gap ... before the Anna Magdalena Notebook and Clementi and Czerny. I'm fighting against boredom and natural limitations in concentration. I know if I can get a student through that first year, loving his lessons and loving the simple music ... I have him hooked on music for life.
Your suggestion for those repeated triplets is a treasure! It works like a charm. And will save me a LOT of work in the future. Thanks so much for this. I would never have worked it out on my own. And here's a little tip of my own. If you change the awkward Ctrl+3 to a simple J ... it's right in the middle of your keyboard and for me at least, much easier than spanning that Ctrl+C. And for some reason that "j" hasn't been claimed as a shortcut for anything else.
Now armed with an R and a J I will stride boldly into battle with those triplet.
Thanks Michael.
In reply to Great tip ... thanks! by Nikki Ty
"J" is actually already taken as a shortcut in the next release - it will change enharmonic spelling (from G# to Ab). Also, I think it would be weird to have triplets have a different type of shortcut than every other type of tuplet. As I mentioned earlier, we have Ctrl+2 for duplets, Ctrl+4 for quadruplets, etc. Having truiplets be anything other than something with "3" in it would make it much harder to remember for people who don't use triplets as often as you do. And I guess every keyboard - and every hand - must be designed differently, but on mine, Ctrl+3 is actually extremely comfortable.
So I think the default should stay as it is. By keeping the default easy to remember for those who use triplets only occasionally, but also having it possible for people who use them a lot to redefine it to be easier for their particular keyboards and their particular hands, everyone wins.
In reply to "J" is actually already taken by Marc Sabatella
I'm chuckling a bit here ... I grabbed that 'J' before the next release. I checked that list very carefully. Please leave at least ONE single symbol free for people like me who like to customize.
I have extremely small hands and all the combos are very uncomfortable. I also use the triplet much more often than any of the others. I don't like the default ... but as long as I have a choice to create my own shortcut, that's fine. I do hope that at leat ONE letter or number will be left open for people to customize. Not be forced into a contorted combo.
In reply to I swiped the "J" by Nikki Ty
Do you not have a CTRL key on both sides of your keyboard so you could use two hands to do CTRL-3? Very unusual keyboard if you don't.
In reply to Ctrl by cwhysall
Yes I have the two Ctrl keys ... but alas there is only ONE 3 key ... and both Ctrl+3 choices require digital gymnastics to reach comfortably. Like the wonderful comedian Joo ... I have small hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKKlhYF53w ( Sorry the devil got into me and I couldn't resist this link...)
I'm thinking I should produce a "Nikki has Small Hands" for YouTube
In reply to Yes ... Two Ctrl keys but ..... by Nikki Ty
Nikki, you are a real puzzle! You don't have to press the Crtl-3 as though it is a chord. As long as the Ctrl goes down before the 3, just like the Shift key for uppercase. So surely there are no gymnastics in pressing (and holding) the right hand Ctrl with your left hand and the 3 with your left hand?
In reply to Gymnastics? by cwhysall
Also, FWIW, the distance between Ctrl & 3 on my keyboard is less then the distance from Shift to 5, 6, 7, or 8. Meaning Ctrl+3 is easier to type than %, ^, &, or *. Or, for that matter, capital T, Y, or U, which also require at least as big a stretch.
I'm not saying people with especially small hands might not have trouble with these keys either, but I would say that I don't think software designers should have to assume their users cannot reach basic key combinations like these. Providing customization optimizations should be good enough. But I am sorry for all the times you've ever had to type a capital T, Y, or U :-)
In reply to Gymnastics? by cwhysall
I know it's a typo ... but the idea of holding down the "right hand Ctrl with your left hand" and the 3 with my left hand has me truly chuckling. That's a breathtaking stretch which even those dratted opening chords of the Tchaikovsky never condemned me to ... and I had to wrap my legs around the piano stool to keep myself upright as I lunged.
But I know what you mean. I'm handicapped by my normal typing speed ... which is over a 100 for text ... and my piano playing speed which rejoices in that silly Flight of the Bumblebee ... mostly I admit to show off. So the fiddliness of this whole process gets me antsy. And the "holding" reminds me of a four part fugue ... putting a thumb on the left hand Ctrl helps a bit.
In reply to Good grief ... by Nikki Ty
Yes, it is a typo. I was about to collapse into bed. Can't blame the iPad for either of those.
If you play and type that well I still find it a puzzle why you cannot use two hands. I would have thought it more natural.
But the thing about triplets, jigs and the Moonlight Sonata is that it depends on what rhythmic pulse you want. Beethoven is clearly enjoying the polyrhythm of a six pulse against a two pulse on the extract you've shown. I've never heard Irish fiddlers playing polyrhythmically.
I don't know how you teach your pupils to count these 'jigs', but as someone who found counting rhythm much more confusing than reading notes simply because I hadn't been twig properly (I'm mostly self taught), I think it is important.
Some years ago I took drum lessons from someone who, I'm amused to say, played drums for Led Zeppelin before John Bonham. He put me straight on this. The way a drummer will count 9/8 is 1-2-3 4-5-6 7-8-9. Triplets are 1-and-a 2-and-a 3-and-a. Quite a different pulse. So with 9/8 you can put the emphasis wherever you like. Very difficult with triplets.
Sorry, off-topic again.
In reply to I swiped the "J" by Nikki Ty
There are tons of key combinations once one includes shift, ctrl, alt, etc, so it's unlikely *everything* would ever be taken. Maybe the "good" combinations will eventually be used up, but just because "J" will be used by default in 2.0 doesn't mean you can't *redefine* it to be triplet. It's really quite impossible to find one set of shortcuts that will make everyone happy; everyone has different things they like to do often that maybe others do rarely (like how entering gigues as 3/4 will cause one to use triplets hundreds of times more often than anyone else, or how writing jazz charts will cause one to want to use chord symbols more than others, etc). So it's kind of expected that people might choose to take a command they personally use more than average and redefine it, possibly "stealing " a shortcut from a less-used command.
In reply to There are tons of key by Marc Sabatella
Thanks .... I don't know why it didn't occur to me that I could "redefine" an already existing shortcut. For some reason I assumed these were written in stone. And their original designation would "override" my choice. So I scoped out the "J".
As long as thievery is permitted ... heck .... there's no problem. I'll cling to my "J" since I'm developing a relationship with it.
And ... ahem ... the Moonlight Sonata is written in triplets ... lots of them ... pages of them. But then Beethoven wasn't using Musescore and didn't have to contend with that Ctrl+3. At this point when I remember the original score ... I think he probably scribbled those triplets faster with his quill pen ..
![Moonlight Manuscript.jpg]( "Moonlight Manuscript.jpg")
In reply to S'okay if I can customize by Nikki Ty
Interestingly, Beethoven apparently found the paper and pencil method of entering triplets to be cumbersome enough that he abbreviated most of them to simple slash marks. He'd probably have considered the ability to repeat a selection by simply press R to be a huge benefit!
In reply to Interestingly, Beethoven by Marc Sabatella
I remember seeing some of the originals and being astounded by his method. I'm so delighted with the R trick with Ctrl and Shift that I wrote a piece in 4/4 entirely in triplets just to see how nicely it works. Yep ... it does. Along with my "J" triplet shortcut ... I'm in clover!
Thanks to all ...
In reply to All my piano (and guitar) by ChurchOrganist
Wow! Thanks a lot ChurchOrganist for your tip of the single entry, Ctrl +3, for triplet.
I had not thought of.
My process was rather a repeat of a filled triplet, or copy and paste it, and changing the notes afterwards. Great idea. Thank you again :-)
In reply to Thanks by Nikki Ty
Hello, Nikki,
I think the best kept secret of MuseScore is the right mouse button. It is actually the best kept secret in all software applications. Click anything with the right mouse button and a menu will pop up with everything you can do to that thing.
So in MuseScore, right click a stave and on the menu you will find Stave Properties. You'll like what you find in there. Similarly with notes, you'll find Note Properties. Many valuable things in there, such as a check box for making the note small (although the property is referred to as a chord property, which it is. Havne't you heard of a one-note chord? :) ).
So right-click away and you'll become an expert in no time at all.
That is what you'll mostly need the mouse for, best to learn the keyboard shortcuts for note input. And if you do not like the default shortcuts you can change them in MuseScore preferences. Perhaps I shouldn't have told you that.
In reply to Another tip - right mouse button by cwhysall
Ooooh la la. This is like a computer game. What a terrific tip. I've been "left-mousing" all over the place today. I've used it for delete but never realized it had other applications. I've also appreciated being able to position the notes by nudging them with the mouse cursor when not in N mode.
Two options that would seem to me to help a lot of similar problems:
1] Option to set a minimum measure width. This would allow, say, 3 or 4 measures per line, facilitate note entry in a fresh score and make for more evenly laid-out scores where there are several near-empty measures in a row. The continuous-entry mode may address this.
2] Option to turn on or off note entry via mouse (I never use the devil's rodent to input notes but recognise that some prefer it).
Meantime, I suggest making a blank score with, say, 100 measures and 3 measures per line. After entering the notes, delete the end-of-line markers and adjust spacing to suit.
In reply to Two options that would seem by underquark
Aloha Quark ..
An earlier poster clued me in to the option of that plug-in allowing measure breaks. The tiny default slivers promptly expanded and put me out of my misery. I've been using a 3 or 4 bar spread and giving myself several cyber pages. Then I just delete what measures I don't need when I'm done. And a nice final double line magically appears.
But your suggestion to set minimum width is probably a better one if my score includes near-empty measures. That would prevent too many bleak-looking spaces.
I'm still using a melange of mouse and keyboard ... I hope to kick the rodent to the curb as soon as I can wean myself away from it. I use it so efficiently with my graphics that I draw with it more accurately than with that Wacom tablet. I'm devoted to the little rascal and relegating it to purgatory is hard.
Thanks for your input. Will try the alterate method on my measures which will definitely give me more flexibillity.