Guitar and Treble Clef
See the 2 attached .png files. I used to play classical guitar seriously, and I don't remember having to use an 8va down clef to get a low E (open 6th string) with only 3 ledger lines. That was normal treble clef. I have a score where I would like to use an 8va down clef so it's not all in the ledger lines - it plays a lot at the low end of the bottom two strings. There is no 15va down treble clef in MuseScore, and I don't think it's correct anyway.
Am I correct here, or is MuseScore currently correct? It has been a while since I read sheet music for classical guitar, and I could be mistaken.
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| TrebleClefGuitarE.png | 5.82 KB |
| 8vaClefGuitarE.png | 5.89 KB |
Comments
fyi - MuseScore 2.1 and 3.0, and the two staves in the .png files are linked.
In reply to fyi - MuseScore 2.1 and 3.0,… by sideways
As I'm sure you are aware, the Guitar is a transposing instrument (by one octave below what's written). Prior to version 2.1, this was accomplished using the 8vb treble clef (which I personally find horrific and because Sibelius does is no reason to perpetuate the insanity...Ok, I'm off my soapbox). Starting in version 2.1, there is now a Guitar (Treble Clef) that transposes it the old fashioned way - with a real music symbol.
In reply to As I'm sure you are aware,… by mike320
Sounds good. The .png files are 2.1 in action. Is there a special guitar clef I need to use. I'm not following you beyond the "guitar is a transposing instrument" part.
In reply to Sounds good. The .png files… by sideways
When you are in the wizard, the treble clef for guitar ("Guitar (Treble Clef)" is in: "All instruments"
So, you have the choice with the treble clef 8vb: ex1.mscz
and the treble clef: ex2 treble.mscz
There are two completely valid ways octave transposition can be handled, both used extensively in the music publishing world. One if to notate using octave clefs - so notation is the same with concert pitch on or off. The other is to treat the same as other transposing instruments, using ordinary clefs but showing the pitch an octave different than it will sound. Apparently you prefer the latter approach. In MuseScore, this is done by setting the "Play Transposition" for that staff to "octave down".
Up until 2.1, MuseScore used the former by default and you needed to manually change to the latter. Starting with 2.1, there is now the "Guitar (Treble Clef)" instrument available that defaults to the latter method.
In reply to There are two completely… by Marc Sabatella
"Prior to version 2.1, this was accomplished using the 8vb treble clef (which I personally find horrific and because Sibelius does is no reason to perpetuate the insanity..."
Insanity, horrific! That's all?! Sibelius has nothing to do with it. I do not think you have enough knowledge of the guitar repertoire and its publications. Otherwise, you would find that both clefs (treble clef and treble 8vb) meet in various editions - I had developed this on a thread a few short years ago.
Then, if your preference is to display the guitar with a treble clef, why not. And that's why it was added for version 2.1
In reply to There are two completely… by Marc Sabatella
Am I legitimate to use the Guitar (Treble Clef) instrument, and then apply an 8va down treble clef via the palette? It makes the part so much easier to read... It works in MuseScore, once I found the transposed instrument.
So MuseScore, by default, uses the non-transposed values for guitar. It's a bit overwhelming to see 8 or 9 different guitar instruments, all implicitly transposed, and then see only one transposed generic guitar, especially when you have to take an extra step to go to All Instruments to even see the transposed guitar. I might make a suggestion, feature request, that Guitar (Treble Clef) be included in the "Common Instruments". Or is the transposed view I'm used to that uncommon? If they are equally common, as you indicate, then the transposed instrument should be in the "Common Instruments" list, shouldn't it? It's still a lot of untransposed guitars versus one transposed instrument, but it's a start :-) I don't think most users even know that additional instruments are available, I didn't notice that it was a drop-down list until I read about how to use it.
In reply to Am I legitimate to use the… by sideways
"Am I legitimate to use the Guitar (Treble Clef) instrument, and then apply an 8va down treble clef via the palette? It makes the part so much easier to read... "
Not sure what you want to get. This, maybe? ex2 treble 1.mscz
Ie, get the display of the sixth open string on the first line of the standard staff? For reasons of ease of reading?
I do not know this kind of display for the guitar, it is contrary to its usual writing.
And anyway, you can only enter the notes from the tablature, otherwise it will not work by entering the notes under the lines of standard staff. Tell me if I understand something wrong? (and if the case, please attach a file - not an image - for explaining more)
" I didn't notice that it was a drop-down list until I read about how to use it."
It is not necessary to use the drop-down list. When you are in the wizard, you type "guitar" in the search box, and you get all the results.
In reply to Not sure what you want to… by cadiz1
Yes, ease of reading, at least for me. Otherwise 99% of this guitar part is in the low ledger lines, mostly at the very bottom end of the 6th string. I realize it's out-of-the-ordinary, and that's why I'm asking. I can leave it with all the ledger lines, that's how it is currently. I don't want to confuse anyone reading the score or the part.
I would still suggest putting Guitar (Treble Clef) in the Common Instruments, if it is commonly used, which it appears to be.
In reply to Yes, ease of reading, at… by sideways
"Otherwise 99% of this guitar part is in the low ledger lines"
99%?! No! I could contradict you easily, but give a percentage, I could not! :)
"I realize it's out-of-the-ordinary [...] I can leave it with all the ledger lines, that's how it is currently"
Indeed.
In reply to "Otherwise 99% of this… by cadiz1
And anyway, speaking of ledger lines, you will encounter the same difficulty (but on the other side of the staff!) when you encounter high notes/frets on the first string. See: ex2 treble 2.mscz
In reply to Am I legitimate to use the… by sideways
I'm not sure I follow - you are saying you actually want the guitar part to be displayed two octaves above how it sounds, so the low "E" string is on the staff rather than below it? I am not sure why you'd want to do this, as it is pretty much unheard of in the literature, and now you're just trading a few trading ledger lines below the staff when playing low notes for ledger lines above the staff. So feel free to do this for your own usage, but no way would this be listed under "Common" instruments, nor would I suggest it be included at all - as I said, it's essentially unheard of to notate for guitar in this way. Virtually all guitar music is published with the low "E" string three ledger lines below the staff, so that is the only option MuseScore is likely to provide "out of the box".
The only question is, as mentioned, whether the octave transposition is explicitly notated via the "8" clef or not. It's close to 50/50 in my experience, but the octave clef notation is arguably the more common one in modern usage, perhaps because of Finale and Sibelius, but whatever the reason, that's how it seems to be currently, so it's what we present as "Common". Generally, we try not to confuse the user by presenting both variations of an instrument as Common - we choose the one that actually is more common.
BTW, to get the low "E" string on the staff if you have a piece that is mostly low notes and it pleases you to not read it on ledger lines, why not simply use an ottava line?
In reply to I'm not sure I follow - you… by Marc Sabatella
Now you are misunderstanding me. Sorry to create such a hoopla over a quirky thing I tried to do.
For this one guitar part, in this one score, I wanted to display the low E, open 6th sting, as the bottom staff line in 8va down treble clef. Yes, a 15va transposition. For this particular part, its full range is one octave in size, starting at the low E. It is almost entirely in the lower ledger lines. Transposed up one octave it never enters ledger lines on either side, which is kind of easy to read.
Re: Common Instruments, I was suggesting putting Guitar (Treble Clef) in there, that's all, an instrument you already have in the All Instruments list.
In reply to Now you are misunderstanding… by sideways
Sounds indeed like a job for ottava lines, changing clefs would likely not be understood by anyone except you. Which is fine if that's the goal, but since ottavas do the job just as well and are the standard way of doing this, why not just go with that?
Yes, I get that you are proposing having two competing guitars in Common instruments. I'm not opposed to it, just observing that generally we like to avoid confusing the user in this way.
In reply to Sounds indeed like a job for… by Marc Sabatella
Yea, ottava lines have crossed my mind. In the moment of my original post, this was all intertwined with my uncertainty about guitar and treble clef. I had not seen the 2.1 Guitar (Treble Clef) instrument, but I was used to reading sheet music for guitar in that format. By defaulting to the 8va clef, MuseScore made me think about presenting this part that way.
As a guitarist who is used to standard treble clef for guitar, the current situation was confusing to me. I just started writing using treble clef. Then I linked to tablature staves and I realized that I was getting something wrong. I don't know the different contexts in which these different notation styles are used, so I can't comment much further. But if the treble clef (transposed) is very common, then the current situation might be confusing for those guitarists. It all depends on whether they pay attention to the clef. Many probably do not notice either way. The only difference is that little bit of subscript text under the clef itself.