Microtonal key signature recognition
Hello everyone,
I saw there has been some discussions about this issue, especially about playback. But I wanted to mention this issue again, which I'm suffering a lot. In Turkish music we use microtonal accidentals, and western sharps and flats are included in our system. Musescore see those accidentals like symbols, so it does not recognize them really. For example if I create a key signature with mirrored-flat and plain sharp, not only the mirrored-flat but also the sharp is considered as a symbol. While editing the score this could lead a lot af accidental miswriting. Not only for key signatures btw. In a measure, the microtonal accidental I put is being considered as flat no matter what the signature is. On the other hand regular sharps and flats are still doing their job. If I have mirrored-flat on B and regular sharp on F, I still have to put sharp to all F notes within the score. If all are symbols, that's fine, but sth in between cause some trouble. Playback for microtonal accidentals may be a hard job to do. But, at least, I want to be able to add microtonal accidental to a note and the next same note in the same measure should still have that accidental. I write a lot of scores with musescore, and this is the biggest issue on my part. Changing key signature is disasterous sometimes.
Another key signature issue is the order of accidentals. Having free board to create our own key signatures is great but doing spacing those accidentals by hand might not seem beautiful. It would be great if we have an opportunity to add our shars and flats then musescore auto-order and auto-space them.
Comments
In western music there is a standard order of sharps and flats as you are probably aware. My question is this, is there a standard order for the key signature symbols in Turkish music? Also, when you use a an instrument in C and an instrument in Bb (or other key), what do you do with the key signatures? The answers to these questions seems to be a roadblock in implementing microtonal and custom key signatures.
In reply to In western music there is a… by mike320
Turkish music is using western notation obviously. So most of the rules are taken as they are. Turkish music is a modal music (makam music). General structure of makams are given with these key signatures. You can see variations of key signatures, just a few of them. Moreover, these structers could be seen at the same time in another makam, compound in other word. Because of this complexity and the need for mobility in changing register, Turkish makam music, mostly, uses treble clef. Transposition and register change is done by the performer. Everyone uses same score no matter what the register is. Sounds absurd but briefly we see treble clef all the time, but we play in all registers. Transposition is in the head basically.
If there is a mirrored flat (which corresponds to 1/9 comma flat) on B in the key signature, it means all the B's are played with mirrored-flat. The same logic.
The accidentals work is the same with western music. The only difference is number of accidentals. Four types of sharps and four types of flats. Logic is the same. So orders are the same as well (visual orders, BEADGCF etc). Type of flat or sharp does not affect the order. It is still sharp or flat.
I'm afraid to repeat the obvious. So if you have more questions, or specific question I'm willing to help.
In reply to Turkish music is using… by gudsur
It's very interesting to learn how the music is notated in Turkey, just because I find this an interesting subject. As far a transposition is concerned, most professional and many amateur musicians in the west are capable of transposing on the fly as well so this does not sound at all absurd.
The questions I want to focus on now are the key signatures you provided. There is no obvious rule in listing the sharps or flats first in your examples. What is most confusing is that most of the flats are listed in the same order (or mirrored order) as in western music, but in the third and fourth examples you show D's rather than E's in the flats. Is there a rule that determines if flats or sharps are listed first? Is there a rule that tells if the flats are listed in order or mirror order? Are sharps ever listed in reverse order? Do the keys have names like in western music? We all know what the Key of E-flat major looks like. Do you know of an online resource that would explain this? It can be in any language.
In reply to It's very interesting to… by mike320
In the forth example there is a mistake, sharp should've been put after the flats. As for the order of flats and sharps, there is no standard for listing the order. Different makams have different needs, so there is no rule that after B flat there should be E flat. The only order we follow BEADGCF for flats and the reverse for sharps. As for the order, D-flat comes later than B-flat in BEADGCF, so we put it that way.
Modes are not symmetrical. They can be basic or compound; and so their key signatures. We know that Saba makam uses D-flat slash and B-flat-mirrored, and the makam always makes the ending on A. So we know how it looks. But for makam Hicaz, the case can be different. We know Hicaz uses B-flat slashed and C-sharp; however F can be sharp or natural. It's up to the composer. If the composer uses flavors that needs F-sharp we put F-sharp on the key signature and show F-natural accidental in the score. If the composition/song uses flavors that favors F-natural than we don't put F-sharp on the key signature, and we show F-sharps with accidentals within the score as well. So in musescore, if I want to change my key signature from "b-flat, c-sharp, f-sharp" to "b-flat, c-sharp" it could be disasterous for a pre-written score.
If you are interested I can recommend Karl Signell's "Makam: modal practice in Turkish art music". Easy to find online
In reply to In the forth example there… by gudsur
All of this is very informative. Hopefully someone interested in writing the computer code for this is watching this conversation. I have a great interest in music of all sorts. Microtonal music is one I have had curiosity about for a long time. My hope is that Microtonal music will make it into MuseScore at some point. I don't expect it to be in any version 3.x because it will probably break compatibility with previous version 3 scores when the time comes, but hopefully it will be one of the things that will be added in version 4 when the time comes.
I'll look up Karl Signell's book.
In reply to In the forth example there… by gudsur
Quote: In the forth example there is a mistake...
Quote: Modes are not symmetrical. They can be basic or compound; and so their key signatures.
Quote: But for makam Hicaz, the case can be different.
Quote: We know Hicaz uses B-flat slashed and C-sharp; however F can be sharp or natural. It's up to the composer.
OK...
So how does a machine (computer) make sense of a composer's intent?
In other words, how does a computer programmer create an algorithm based on a composer's intent, different cases, non symetrical modes, and mistakes?
In reply to Quote: In the forth example… by Jm6stringer
Read the book mentioned... I would think that there is method to the madness, a programmer just needs to do his research to understand it.
In reply to Quote: In the forth example… by Jm6stringer
Quote: In the forth example there is a mistake...
A: It is my mistake, I wrote them. Sharp needs to be after flats. Like in normal key signatures sharps are written after flats. I don't expect the machine to find my mistakes, but this kind of a mistake (the general order for sharps and flats is world-wide) is detectable of course; even for a computer.
Quote: We know Hicaz uses B-flat slashed and C-sharp; however F can be sharp or natural. It's up to the composer.
A: Computer/machine does not have to know composer's intent. We can understand and write it accordingly. But in these cases, if you put non-western sharp or flat in the key signature, even western sharps and flats are seen as irregular. The only thing we expect from the application is to see these non-western sharps and flats as a sharps and flats, not as a cosmetic aspect. That's all. (And as I checked, half of this problem is solved in 3.0.)
The difficulty here is to play or transpose them, because of the ratios. But that's not the case here. Btw, tuning the notes is possible in Musescore.
Non-symmetricalness is a normal thing actually. Even notes/intervals are not symmetrical within a scale. I can't get your point.