Concert pitch should be automatically deactivated by default in parts
After reading this long and crazy discussion here https://musescore.org/en/node/283120?page=1 I’m surprized that the more aggravating flaw (certainly not the color or shape of the Concert Pitch button!), is namely, that when you hit Concert Pitch in the score and extract the parts, the parts keep the Concert Pitch by default. You have to remember to deactivate Concert Pitch in the corresponding part, an operation that surprizes me as a new user of Musescore. Concert Pitch, no matter if it’s selected in the score or not, should be always deactivated by default for the parts. The user should have to manually click it, even if the score is already in Concert Pitch. Concert Pitch parts are quite concerning for any user, and make no sense at all. To leave Concert Pitch on from the score in the parts should be considered, by virtue of musical expectations, a bug.
Comments
I'm in total agreement. Unless there is a template that you are using that does otherwise, generating parts makes parts with the concert pitch turned off. If you have a sample score where the parts are generated with concert pitch turned on, then please post it and tell us how the score was created so it can be fixed.
In reply to I'm in total agreement… by mike320
I don’t follow. I can surely know when a part is not in the correct transposition. What happens is, after you know that it isn’t and see that the culprit is that Concert Pitch, which was being used for the score, is still on after having generated the parts (with Concert Pitch on), the following step is to deactivate Concert pitch for the part. A step that shouldn’t even exist in the first place. The specific score is irrelevant to reproduce.
In reply to I don’t follow. I can surely… by m.r-botero
What you describe doesn't happen when I generate parts. Show us a score where this happens or it can't be fixed.
In reply to What you describe doesn't… by mike320
I have no intention in publishing my work nor copyrighted material here.
In reply to I have no intention in… by m.r-botero
But "fortunately" it happens in every file I open, even with the orchestral template included in Musescore. Note that my custom style has Concert Pitch on by default, which should be irrelevant for extracting parts.
In reply to But "fortunately" it happens… by m.r-botero
On a side note, notice the nice brackets put automatically for the Horns in F and the Timpani parts :-).
In reply to But "fortunately" it happens… by m.r-botero
Not if you delete all parts and re-generate them again (so not by default!). Or when you, on a part's tab, use Format > Style > General, disable "Display in concert pitch" and then hit the "Apply to all Parts" button.
In reply to Not if you delete all parts… by Jojo-Schmitz
I think this is a bug. I disabled Concert Pitch in a new file and saved it as an update to my default custom style file. I closed Musescore and opened it again (I have my custom style as default). Opening a new orchestral template gave me a transposed score as expected. I clicked on Concert Pitch, wrote the same notes in the clarinet, extracted parts and voilà, the parts are transposed. The bug is thus, if Concert Pitch is saved in a default custom style, parts are automatically generated in Concert Pitch. Saving concert pitch in another style file that's not loaded with Musescore and applying that style to an existing transposed score has no effect in the parts. So it has something to do with loading a default style file with Musescore.
In reply to I think this is a bug. I… by m.r-botero
Did you only specify this as the default for the score, or did you also specify it for parts? If you specified it for parts, then it's not a bug, MuseScore is doing what you asked. You should have separate version of the MSS file for parts that has concert pitch turned off.
In reply to Did you only specify this as… by Marc Sabatella
I didn’t specify anything. I just clicked on the “Concert Pitch” button.
It is anyways fixed for now by not having Concert Pitch on in the default style file, since it doesn’t work as expected, and it shouldn’t be recommended for other users until this bug is fixed.
In reply to I didn’t specify anything. I… by m.r-botero
Which bug?
Create new score, pick the instruments manually
Switch on Concert Pitch
Generate parts
-> the parts have Concert pitch off
If there is a bug, then in your templates or style files
In reply to Which bug? Create new score,… by Jojo-Schmitz
Have you even reproduced my described steps?
1. Select Concert Pitch in a new file
2. Save it as style.
3. Set the file as default style in the preferences.
4. Close Musescore and open it again.
5. Make a new orchestra score and write some stuff in a transposing instrument.
6. Generate parts
7. Be amazed at the result ;-).
In reply to Have you even reproduced my… by m.r-botero
Drop step 2 and all is well
Or do step 2 for the parts, and only there
Or use a different style file for parts
As said, it is your style file that has the bug, not MuseScore
In reply to Drop step 2 and all is well… by Jojo-Schmitz
If concert pitch parts for transposed instruments would be a normal thing, sure, it’s not a bug. You yourself proved to me, by telling me to drop step 2, that this is indeed a bug. By “Concert Pitch” a score with transposed instruments is meant, not concert pitch parts. Please stop being so defensive about it.
In reply to If concert pitch parts for… by m.r-botero
You changed the default and blame MuseScore for having a bug using that change default? Seriously?
In reply to Have you even reproduced my… by m.r-botero
In your step by step instructions:
2. Save it as style.
is a feature which you are not using the way it was intended. If someone wants concert pitch parts, they have that ability. It is not the MuseScore default, but it does seem to be your default. Don't tell MuseScore to do what you don't want it to do and it won't do it.
Though this is a feature I've never used and didn't even know it existed, it is good that MuseScore gives us the flexibility to do things in many ways. In the Turkish tradition, players read everything from concert pitch parts since microtones don't get transcribed. Someone writing for this type of music have the option to create concert pitch parts, but they must tell MuseScore that is what they want, just as you have been doing. For these types of music, this is a far better option for them than having to remember to go into each transposing part and click the Concert Pitch button.
Finally,
7. Be amazed at the result
It only amazes me that the programmers of MuseScore thought to allow the user to have this as an option. Kudos to Werner and the people who put this in there.
In reply to I didn’t specify anything. I… by m.r-botero
No, I mean, in Edit / Preferences / Score, did you leave the “Style for parts” box blank, or did you list this same style file to be used there as well as for the score? If you listed this file for parts, then it’s not a bug.
In reply to No, I mean, in Edit /… by Marc Sabatella
I’ll have to check that on Monday after I’m back in Berlin. Thanks!
In reply to No, I mean, in Edit /… by Marc Sabatella
I have now tested this, and for me it works as expected. That is, if I specify my custom MSS file in the "Style" box only, and leave the "Style for part" blank, then I get concert pitch score, but upon generating parts, they are transposed as expected. Now, if I also set the "Style for part" to my same custom style, then they come out concert pitch, exactly as I asked for when I set "Style for part" to my custom MSS.
So unless I'm missing something, everything is exactly as it should be. Note there is no reason to actually set "Style for part" to literally the same MSS file as "Style". That's because parts automatically inherit the style of the score - except, as noted, for the fact that concert pitch is normally forced off (and multimeasure rests are forced on). The only reason to ever set "Style for part" is if you want a different style for the part versus the score. This isn't particularly unusual - you might want different system spacing, for example, different measure spacing, different staff size, different paper size, etc. So it's fine to have a custom "Style for part" - just make sure it doesn't have concert pitch turned on.
Note it maybe necessary to restart MuseScore after a change to these settings - that much is a bug. See #279309: Default style file not clearing during session. It seems from a brief test that setting a custom style takes effect immediately, but clearing the field does not.
In reply to I have now tested this, and… by Marc Sabatella
Dear Marc,
thank you for taking the time to try to reproduce my experience. I can’t look now but that’s maybe what happened in the preferences. I didn’t know it’s possible to have two separate style files for score and parts. That’s great! At first glance, including the option of “Apply to all parts” you would think that the style rules don’t keep with the parts, which is striking, since there are stuff like the music font, that absolutely need to be in both things (why would anyone want the score in Bravura and the parts in Emmentaler?).
If I did anything right was to put this thread under Feature Request and not under Bug report. The connection between the style for the score, for the parts and their interplay with the preferences, added to the fact that parts automatically inherit the style of the score (as I would expect, but you also see some signs in the style menu that that might not be the case) but don’t if you specify that in the preferences, make everything a bit convoluted from a usability perspective. So certainly there might be room for improvement in this area.
In reply to Dear Marc, thank you for… by m.r-botero
Glad we're getting to the bottom of this!
The reason the "Apply to all parts" button exists is that it is needed to update the parts with changes that are made to the style after the parts are generated. I said the parts "inherit" the style of the score, which is true at the moment the parts are created. So, the parts each get a copy of the score's style. After that, they are independent.
But yes, in general, we could use more sophisticated methods of controlling the linking different style settings or element properties. Right now a setting is either linked or not, no way for the user to override this. It's been on the list of things to deal with ever since linked parts were introduced in 2.0, and what would be involved to implementation this is pretty clear and not that hard. But so far no one has designed what these controls might look like to the user or really thought through all the different scenarios.
In reply to Glad we're getting to the… by Marc Sabatella
Yes, quite a few discoveries here!
“ The reason the "Apply to all parts" button exists is that it is needed to update the parts with changes that are made to the style after the parts are generated”.
I would never, in a million years, would have discovered this by myself, haha. Styles in Word or LyX are something you set up before you start writing, not after. In that sense, that knowledge doesn’t seem to be entirely true when it comes to parts in Musescore.
“ But so far no one has designed what these controls might look like to the user or really thought through all the different scenarios”.
Seems like a task for Super Tantacrul ;-).
In reply to Yes, quite a few discoveries… by m.r-botero
Indeed, it's something I hope he can help us address!
As for styles, though - I haven't used Word in years, but last time I did, you could most definitely change styles after document creation. Paragraph styles and character styles both. It's certainly that way in LibreOffice as well as Google Docs (although the latter doesn't have a "character style" concept). As far as I know, the idea that you can present a style, but also change your mind and update aspects of that style and have those changes immediately affect the current document - that's universally true of all programs I know of that use the word "style". What's a bit unique about music notation programs is that score and parts may have different styles. Word had, as I recall, the concept of a "master" document that could be used when building a book, so each chapter might be a separate document. My impression when I was creating books in Word is that this scheme was equally as awkward as it score/parts is in MuseScore - how to make a change that might affect all chapters versus just a single chapter, etc.
To be clear: regardless of whether concert pitch is on or off in the score, it is always forced off in the parts when you generate them. I think there was a bug in one version a year or so ago where this didn't happen correctly in all case, but in all other versions, including any recent version, this should work exactly like that. As mentioned, if you have some particular score where it seems to not function as expected, please attach it so we can investigate.
I suppose if you have defined a custom style for parts in Edit / Preferences / Score, and that custom style has concert pitch on, then one might reasonably expect that to take precedence. Not sure it actually does, though...
In reply to To be clear: regardless of… by Marc Sabatella
“ I suppose if you have defined a custom style for parts in Edit / Preferences / Score, and that custom style has concert pitch on, then one might reasonably expect that to take precedence. Not sure it actually does, though...”
I’ll have to experiment again later. I do have a custom style (who can reasonably use Musescore defaults? ;-)), but what I’m saying is, under any circumstance, not even with a custom style, should Musescore allow and save Concert Pitch on for parts, other than the user being able to switch it on temporarily in the parts. If the user goes to the part and makes concert pitch on, that shouldn’t be saved nor remembered. That means, if the user goes to the score and comes back to the part, he should have to turn concert pitch on again if desired. That I have to turn it off when I hadn’t turned it on in the first place has been quite concerning (I’m using the last available Appimage, btw.).
In reply to “ I suppose if you have… by m.r-botero
If the user goes to the part and makes concert pitch on, that shouldn’t be saved nor remembered. That means, if the user goes to the score and comes back to the part, he should have to turn concert pitch on again if desired.
Here's at least one user that doesn't agree. MuseScore should restore both score and parts the way I chose them to be when I saved them.
In reply to If the user goes to the part… by jeetee
That Musescore provides the “service” of concert pitch parts is quite risky if you work professionally with the software. The risk of printing concert pitch parts is not worth it. If you need a C Clarinet (whatever that is), you should have to explicitly change the transposition of the instrument in the staff properties. This shouldn’t be taken from the Concert Pitch button.
In reply to That Musescore provides the … by m.r-botero
Then please tell me the "correct" transposition for a Tuba ;-)
To be clear though, I agree that on part creation, those parts should always be created in transposed pitch.
In reply to That Musescore provides the … by m.r-botero
A C Clarinet is what I use to play the last movement of Beethoven Symphony No. 5.
In reply to A C Clarinet is what I use… by SteveBlower
a C Clarinet is not a transposing instrument, so Concert Pitch has no effect on it
In reply to a C Clarinet is not a… by Jojo-Schmitz
But I think m.r.botero's point is that it is "cheating" to have a Bb clarinet part and then just display it at concert pitch and call it a C Clarinet part. One difficulty you would run into if you (ab)use the concert pitch button in that way arises because a Bb clarinet can play down to the D (concert) below middle C. The C clarinet can only get down to the E.
In reply to But I think m.r.botero's… by SteveBlower
Yes to “cheat” in the part, by telling Musescore to display the part in concert pitch should be possible. But that shouldn’t be saved nor remembered, whether in a default style or not.
In reply to a C Clarinet is not a… by Jojo-Schmitz
as it should be the case if you selected a “C Clarinet” from the instrument list while creating your score. But a concert pitch part shouldn’t be the case for a Bb clarinet. A concert pitch part of a transposing instrument is an unwanted “feature” of Musescore.
In reply to That Musescore provides the … by m.r-botero
I know quite a few professional woodwind players who prefer concert pitch parts - they have trained themselves to read that way. It's a reasonable thing for jazz players who may wish to play the same music on different saxophones or flute, etc. So, it's an important feature. You don't need to use it if you prefer not to.
In reply to I know quite a few… by Marc Sabatella
What’s expected in the jazz world is a tiny fraction of all notated music with a longer tradition (classical music), and jazz shouldn’t be taken as default behavior. What is usually notated in jazz is many levels of complexity inferior to classical music (since many things are improvised, and it’s often the case that jazz musicians don’t really follow the written parts. The real complexity in jazz is thus not written but played). As I said, having C instruments for jazz musicians that prefer it that way can be done by changing the instrument or its properties in the staff properties. The “quick and easy” way of having concert pitch parts for transposed instruments is dangerous for the majority of notated music. Tranposed parts for a jazz musician is not a terrible mistake. Concert pitch parts for classical musicians is.
In reply to What’s expected in the jazz… by m.r-botero
It is not taken as the default, except (maybe) for some Jazz templates or Jazz style files!
In reply to What’s expected in the jazz… by m.r-botero
Jazz is a minority of all music written today, true, but so is classical music. In any case, this is also irrelevant, my point here is to demonstrate that cover pitch parts are an important feature to provide, co ready to your earlier claim. But everyone agrees they should not be the default. And that is why they aren’t. Only if you explicitly tell MuseScore you want concert pitch off by default does this happen.
If you carefully told MuseScore to use your custom MSS file for the score only but not for parts, but the style is being applied to parts anyhow, that is a bug indeed. But that has not been my experience.