Playback: tied trills
Chromebook/Linux
I saw something mentioned 5+ years ago which may be similar. Since it may still be the same thing I thought I would bring it up, again.
Tied notes over multiple measures that are trills or a roll for percussion, if you use the trill sign(s), sound for the first measure, then at least the second measure has no sound. Some occurrences do not sound the third measure and some do. Very irregular.
It was suggested to just leave the ties off and that works ok in MS, but not at all with real performers. And in a large score with multiple times happening it would be very difficult to clear and reaccert the ties over 100+ pages. I hope mentioning this again might bring it back into focus.
Comments
I've used a couple different notation programs. Including Sibelius. What I learned long ago is that sometimes I needed two scores. One for playback. Because I have to do all kinds of un-natural things to get the playback I want. And a score I would hand to real players.
Who knows when the trill problem will be fixed. And it isn't the only playback problem by any means.
In reply to I've used a couple different… by bobjp
Bobjp
You are probably right. I, though have enough trouble keeping tabs on one set of files, let alone two! Between what I try to do and what MS does that I was not expecting, I get in serious trouble. I may be there from something the probgram did yesterday? Will not know for sure till I start work next week. Too 'concerned' to follow up before I quit. Will hope for the best....expect the worst!
I also accidentally did something that made the tied trills problem disappear. Probably just another version of the problem. Will experiment further next time I open. Let you know what I find then.
Thanks for the thoughts
In reply to Bobjp You are probably right… by R. L. F.
Actually my old brain remembered something. I don't know how you are entering trills, but I just tried this and it worked for me. at least.
On a flute part, I tied three whole notes together. I used the tr with the trill line after it. I selected the line and dragged the end of it to cover all three measures. The trill played correctly.
In reply to Actually my old brain… by bobjp
I tried your way. Sorry no luck. I forgot to ask if you are using chromebook/linux. I do think some features work slightly different.
I could not get things to work as I thought I did last week. No surprise there. And the feature works somewhat differently 2/4, 3/4, 4/4. One measure drops one time sign, two meas another then a fourth plays again, in another. Nothing consistent. Very frustrating.
I did run into two ways that seemed to always work, at least this time! Neither is perfect or truly correct.
One; just fill the measures with correct note, then trill with squiggly line and pull to end of trilled notes. They all played. No tied lines. Not great, but did play. Second; slightly better, just use slur lines, then trill with squiggly line and pull over all trilled notes. It 'looks' better and sounds fine. The slur lines just raise higher over the notes.
Since you and I seem to be only ones interested :) I am sure it is why it has not been corrected, yet!!
Thanks for the comment
In reply to I tried your way. Sorry no… by R. L. F.
Actually, there have been a few posts about tied trills.
In reply to Actually, there have been a… by bobjp
Guess they were before I posted. Have not noticed any now. When I looked before I posted, the thread I saw was years old, as I mentioned. I shall keep experimenting with what I have come across. Sorry your suggestion did not work for me. It sounded very useful.
In reply to Guess they were before I… by R. L. F.
Come to think of it, I'm not sure if I would have a problem with no ties. If I was playing a part that had three whole notes that where not tied but had a trill line over them, I would just trill through all three. Much like I would if the notes where not all the same pitch.
In reply to Come to think of it, I'm not… by bobjp
That is certainly a possibility, but I would be concerned a performer might/would think you want a new attack at beginning of each measure with the trill continuing. Hard to know. Some kind of tie/slur seems the safer way of doing it. Obviously tie!
In reply to That is certainly a… by R. L. F.
That would be the case if you put a new trill over each whole note. I think a trill line spanning the notes would say one continuous trill.
In reply to That would be the case if… by bobjp
Maybe yes...maybe no. I think a conscientious performer reading the score might think you want the trill to continue, but you want an attack at each measure where there was no 'expected' tie. Just my thought of what might be, if what was normal was not there? But yes, could go either way.
Check out the famous Piccolo and Flute trills in the final measures of John Philip Sousa's The Stars and Stripes Forever:
https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/3/36/IMSLP474541-PMLP0323…
In reply to Check out the famous Piccolo… by Jm6stringer
Sorry, nothing shows for me with your link. If there are no ties that is fine. I would be very sure Sousa was conducting the first performance(s) and would have expressed how he was meaning for it to be played. And now there are Many years of tradition from that first performance. I on the otherhand would not have either occurring! The ties will show on the score and that is the important element! Thanks for the thought
In reply to Sorry, nothing shows for me… by R. L. F.
In the score he posted, there is a trill that lasts for four measures. There are no ties. Just a trill line over all the notes. We don't have the original score. Who knows how it was written. Different publishers do things differently. You need to do what you think is right for you.
Just as an aside. Mendelssohn used to go sit under a tree and on a blank page scratch out his own staff paper and scribble out a symphony. We have some of those originals. Then he would hand those to his assistants to write out legible copies. Who knows how accurate they were. Did the composer double check? Would he remember every detail?
In reply to In the score he posted,… by bobjp
I thought it was something like that. As I said, tooo many years of tradition and the composer leading first performances for an accurate comparison. Most likely it was how it was written.
I, many times over the years have wished I had copiest to make good copies. As for sitting under a tree, I have too many apples falling on my head. As did some Newton fellow! Thanks for the comments
In a real-life, live performance, tied notes are treated by performers as though they were one single note of extra long duration. But clearly this isn't happening in MuseScore — instead it is interpreting these tied notes as separate durations. For example, a musician would play two whole notes and a half note tied together as a single note with a duration of 10 beats. MuseScore instead seems to internally treat the component notes of the tie as separate notes of 4, 4, and 2 beats, and then applies the tie only at playback itself. This is working fine for sustains, but a bug of some sort keeps it from being properly applied to trills and ties.
So what if we fix that at the root? Nothing changes from one measure to the next, so why not just treat tied notes as one single long note? If you want a trill or tremolo to carry over to another note of the same pitch, you can just use a slur since it looks the same as a tie.
To summarize, if the code could be reworked so that MuseScore immediately sums the component durations of tied notes and then uses only this combined value in its later calculations and export to playback, wouldn't this solve the issue?
In reply to In a real-life, live… by jfmusicaddict
It has been some time since I posted this issue. I am trying to recall my issue. Sorry, it has been crazy today and I did not have a chance to really consider your solution. I do think it will solve the problem. As you say it looks correct and should give the correct results when played back. I guess I will have to try it and listen to the sound, but I think you have a great work around for this issue. We'll done. At least till the real issue is fixed! Let you know what I find.
Thanks for the thought
In reply to In a real-life, live… by jfmusicaddict
Jfmusicaddict
Sorry it has taken so long to get back. Your suggestion does work. I did notice if the note is b or # the sign does stay unlike with a tie. Not a major issue, just looks a bit odd.
I have to say in trying things(MU 4.2.1) I had no issues with the trill sign followed by squiggly line as long as I pulled it over the measure with the tied note. Do not know why? I was using strings and I had been using percussion, previously.
Thanks for the work around, if it's needed!