Guitar in re-entrant tuning
Attempting to write tablature for a 5-course baroque guitar which has a 're-entrant' tuning (the fifth course is tuned an octave higher than standard). Unfortunately when I change the base pitch of string 5 notes above fret 5 transpose downwards. I've tried starting with other base instruments but the same happens when I enter a re-entrant tuning. The same problem occurs when attempting tablature for a standard guitar in 'Nashville tuning'. I attach a file which illustrates the problem.
Is this a bug, and is there a workaround?
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| problem.mscz | 22.07 KB |
Comments
Something odd going on, possibly a bug.
I did this in Musescore 3.7 but might give some clues.
Start with Classical Guitar, delete the lowest string 6, change 5th string from A2 to A3 - number of frets "automatically" changes from 19 to 24 after which you can't take the 5th string beyond the 4th fret.
Standard re-entrant instruments such as Ukulele don't show this problem.
In reply to Something odd going on,… by rothers
Thanks for the reply. I also tried starting with a ukulele and adding a string. Same problem happened.
In reply to Thanks for the reply. I also… by dylbonner
It's seems unfortunately to be a side effect of the fix (https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/commit/9caa77348e3bb9b1a10804e55…) of this problem: #316896: Banjo Fifth String
Indeed, as far I see, it works as expected in V2 until version 3.6.1... and not in 3.6.2 and of course not in V4 too.
In reply to It's seems infortunately to… by cadiz1
So this 5th string characteristic of Banjos is getting applied wrongly to all 5 string instruments and it's not a consequence of re-entrant tuning ?
In reply to So this 5th string… by rothers
As per a comment in the code:
// Based only on number of strings and tuning - other info
// may not be available when this is called. Checks 5th string
// pitch is higher than 4th (i.e. not a 5 string bass)
In reply to As per a comment in the code… by Jojo-Schmitz
It's definitely a bug, but I think I've found a workaround. Using the Classical Guitar tablature template you can adjust the 'number of lines' to 5 in stave properties, but still leave all six strings listed in the 'edit string data'. This creates an invisible 6th course. The 5 visible strings can then be tuned to any re-entrant tuning with no problems.
In reply to It's definitely a bug, but I… by dylbonner
Well it turns out the bug may have done me a favour. I was trying to work out how to notate the double octave 4th course so the sound represented the music as written. Turns out that the 'invisible' 6th course of the tablature can be tuned to the upper note of the octave and supplied with 'invisible' notes which provide the upper octave in the linked treble clef stave and the playback but aren't visible in the tablature. Strikes me the same idea can be applied to 12 string guitar for which there is currently no template available.
In reply to Well it turns out the bug… by dylbonner
Could you please attach the relevant score in .mscz format, or simply an extract (after selecting a few initial measures, then menu File / Save selection) where you apply what you say. I play baroque guitar (a bit) and I'd like to have a look at some things and check them out. I suppose this might also be of interest to other guitarists in this kind of situation. Thanks.
In reply to Could you please attach the… by cadiz1
Sure. Here's a suite by Grenata from the James Tyler anthology. I've just started baroque guitar and can't handle the 'upside down' tablature so I'm having to transcribe everything I play.
In reply to Sure. Here's a suite by… by dylbonner
Btw the playback is odd because the ornaments all affect all the notes of the chords, but that's another little bug to sort out.
In reply to Sure. Here's a suite by… by dylbonner
All right, thanks. Indeed, the Italian tablature-style inverted display is not the most common, so it takes a bit time of getting used to.
![Sans titre 1.jpg]( "Sans titre 1.jpg")
![guitare baroque.jpg]( "guitare baroque.jpg")
With your workaround, I unfortunately see a problem with printing, since the ledger lines cannot be hidden - see the image. Which makes for a rather bizarre effect...
But if it's only for your personal use and listening, it's not something that's prohibitive.
What's more, as I'm sure you know, there's no absolute standard for courses to be tuned to octave or unison. It depends on the country and the composer - see this non-exhaustive example in the other image.
As far as I'm concerned, audio rendering isn't the most important thing (in any case, the sound of a baroque guitar is so unique). I'd rather not bother with all those octave possibilities, and keep the tuning of a classical guitar (with 5 strings, of course!).
What does bother me, however, is the bug already mentioned above. I'd been following this feature request for the banjo (and as I also play the banjo a bit, I wasn't unhappy!), but unfortunately all and full implications escaped me. And I'm a bit angry about it :(
In reply to All right, thanks. Indeed,… by cadiz1
Thanks for the comments. I hadn't actually printed it yet so I wasn't aware of the ghost lines under the stave. i too am not so worried about playback (though it's handy to check for bum notes). On the other hand the crosses or 'ledger lines' do create a visual reminder that the upper octave will sound on certain notes. I'm strung in French tuning for the moment and still find the upper octave a bit disconcerting when it wanders in and out of scale passages particularly in 'campanela' passages (ringing scales using adjacent re-entrant strings) where single notes sound the upper octave often inappropriately. I suspect I might eventually settle on a fully re-entrant 'Spanish' tuning to avoid this problem though I am new to baroque guitar and want to explore the possibilities. It may just be that the unexpected upper octaves are part and parcel of baroque guitar and we should suck it up and learn to live with them. I never really got used to them on 12-string guitar but it never seemed to bother Leadbelly. Have you ever tried a 6 string in Nashville tuning? - similar problem to get your head round. For the time being I'm having enough struggle trying to cancel 50 years of playing classical guitar (nails, high wrist and thumbs well out) and replace it with lute technique (no nails, low wrist and thumb usually under).
In reply to Thanks for the comments. I… by dylbonner
"Have you ever tried a 6 string in Nashville tuning?"
Nope
"For the time being I'm having enough struggle trying to cancel 50 years of playing classical guitar (nails, high wrist and thumbs well out) and replace it with lute technique (no nails, low wrist and thumb usually under)."
Good luck!😂
In reply to "Have you ever tried a 6… by cadiz1
I've now sorted the notation. Instead of making the extra string invisible I've turned it white. This removes any sign of the 6th string but the notation actually reflects what you hear with the upper octave. I've done two collections now and am happy I can read it easily.
In reply to I've now sorted the notation… by dylbonner
"Instead of making the extra string invisible I've turned it white"
![blank.jpg]( "blank.jpg")
Almost... :)
But the most important thing is that you're happy with the result. 👍
In reply to "Instead of making the extra… by cadiz1
I think you have your background colour set to off-white (edit/preferences/appearance). I don't know why this is the MuseScore default but mine is set to pure white so I don't see any discrepancy. The black dots are inevitable but don't show when printed (at least on my printer). And yes I am happy with the result. I can read the tablature easily and the stave notation at least reflects what I'm hearing.