Barlines
Is it possible to score music with MU 4.x without barlines on the score? For some new music and also some medieval scores this is what is wanted. I am not finding any references in the handbook, but I admit to having difficulty locating things in the handbook. Any thoughts will be appreciated.
Comments
Same as in Mu3, by using custom measure durations that span the entire page width, achieved by e.g. Tools > Measure > Join selected measures
In reply to Same as in Mu3, by using… by Jojo-Schmitz
I will check this if I figure what you are saying. Does this then leave a barline at the end of each page with?
In reply to I will check this if I… by R. L. F.
Yes, but you can make that invisible (select, press V)
In reply to Yes, but you can make that… by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks!
I was wondering if that might be the case. Sounds like what I am looking for!
In reply to Same as in Mu3, by using… by Jojo-Schmitz
Finally got to the movement. Used the info and got the no barlines. At that point MU4.3 does not work correctly anymore. Spacing no longer works, music wrap from system to system no longer, some beaming functions do not work. It was a song and adding lyrics would surely be a nightmare. These are what I remember right off. For the most part Mu4 was useless. After wasting more than an hour I gave up. Was using win 11 and Mu4.3
I do not see how anyone could use this for any measureless older music.
In reply to Finally got to the movement… by R. L. F.
You have to decide how to wrap the music from system to system. Basically, each system is one measure (with the barline made invisible). It's quite workable, just a little more work for YOU.
I think I would begin by inputting it in 4/4 (or another reasonable time signature) to determine how the lyrics and wrap fit best. Then use the Tools / Join selected measures to make each system a single bar. Then hide the barlines at the end of each measure/system.
In reply to You have to decide how to… by TheHutch
As I tried to explain in 'measureless' there was no way I could get things to wrap or move from one system to another. Or, even to work correctly in the one system. My post was trying to point out that what is in the handbook(as you kindly pointed at) does not function properly. Nothing more.
Once you do things in a regular signature there really is no reason to risk what 'might' happen changing to measureless. Just hide a lot of things and live with it. Thanks for the thought..
In reply to As I tried to explain in … by R. L. F.
My instructions were clear, I thought. Did you try them? You have to deal with wrapping etc while the notes are still in (otherwise meaningless) measures.
Enter your notes in some moderately reasonable time signature.
Then add the lyrics. Notice that the lyrics change the system wrap: they take up more space than only notes.
The automatic system breaks work normally. However, I don't like that last system having only three measures while the others all have five. I'll adjust that with an explicit System break from the Layout palette. (See the end of the third system.)
One system at a time, select all measures on a system.
Then click on Tools / Join selected measures. This will join all four, or five or however many measures are on that system into a single measure, with a system break at the end.
Then hide the single barline at the end of the system/measure. At this point, I have hidden the first three bar lines. Notice that they still appear, but are grayed out. That means that they are "invisible" and will not print. If you look at the score on the Publish tab, you'll see that they are not visible. You can also hide them completely by clicking on View / Show and unchecking Show invisible.
In reply to My instructions were clear,… by TheHutch
Interesting! I found some complications that change my advice here.
When I deleted the 3/4 time signature, it reset all my score into the (presumably?) default 4/4 measures, undoing the measure changes I had made. So, delete the time signature before you begin forcing the score into the "measureless" systems.
In the third step I described above, you can also not accept where the measures end. For example, "na-tion" splits its syllables over a measure break, so it gets split between two systems in the final version. You can Join the two measures containing "na-tion" (m. 4-5 in the second screenshot) into a single measure, and then Split it after "na-tion" ... or after "con-ceived" if you like it better there.
Here is the section of the MuseScore 4 Handbook specific to your question; https://musescore.org/en/handbook/4/pickup-and-non-metered-measures
BTW, I recommend this to every new (or "new-ish" :-) user I communicate with. Take an hour or two and simply read the entire MuseScore 4 Handbook. Don't try to memorize it! Just skim through it and familiarize yourself with the contents! But read it all!!! Then you'll have an idea where to find things when issues come up in the future. "Didn't I see something about that in the Handbook?"
Welcome aboard and best of luck!!!
In reply to Here is the section of the… by TheHutch
Sorry
Been using MU since 1.3 or 1.7. Toooo far back to remember. Just skimming through would be just that for me, now-a-days. Guarantee I would not remember exactly where anything is. I have to 'use it' or 'lose it'. I like to use contents areas, and unfortunately, they do not always seem to be that helpful. Problem where I think something might be is not where it ends up being.
Good thought though!
I need to read the section to see if it will work as hoped. From what Jojo said earlier I am concerned.
Thanks again
In reply to Sorry Been using MU since 1… by R. L. F.
There never was a 1.7
In reply to There never was a 1.7 by Jojo-Schmitz
As I said tooo long ago to remember!
In reply to As I said tooo long ago to… by R. L. F.
The idea of skimming the manual is not to memorize it. But to note some of the things that are different. Personally, I find it daunting to find most anything in it. I have downloaded it as a PDF. The "Find" function in Acrobat is much more accurate and easier to use.
In reply to The idea of skimming the… by bobjp
Bobjp
Yes, pdf is most likely the way to go. I have just not wanted to give up space to download something that should be much easier for all of us to use. It is there for that purpose!
Thanks for the thought
In reply to Here is the section of the… by TheHutch
Used your info to find the section. As I told Jojo everything then falls apart. Not worth trying.
Next week I might try some different direction to see if I can get what I need. Not really holding much hope!
Thanks again for the guidance. I know I would never have found that section....which might have been a good thing. :)
In reply to Used your info to find the… by R. L. F.
You could experiment with large time signatures. 63/4 might be the largest. Each measure would be one line. So each line might be different. 63/4 is too big. Just a suggestion.
In reply to You could experiment with… by bobjp
Just use 4/4, enter the notes then join measures, it is as easy as selecting then and pressing Ctrl+ Del
In reply to Just use 4/4, enter the… by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, that is what I finally did to get it done. Not exactly what I was hoping for, but at least it is done.
Why have all of the instructions in the handbook?
In reply to You could experiment with… by bobjp
That is what I tried first when I was using the handbook directions. Got me nowhere. As I mentioned to Jojo, I used the 4/4 thought and then hid the barlines. Do not know how a large measure might work?
In reply to That is what I tried first… by R. L. F.
I didn't say hide the barlines, but delete them!
In reply to I didn't say hide the… by Jojo-Schmitz
Did not think to try that either. In the final result is there really a difference, if they do not show up?
Thanks for the suggestion
In reply to Did not think to try that… by R. L. F.
Yes, the layout is different, even an invisible barline takes space (although I'd call that a bug)
In reply to Yes, the layout is different… by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks, did not understand that. But, if you delete several barlines on a system will that not allow more notes onto the system. And if things are spaced fine before the delete will that not cause a spacing shuffle and then more shifting to get things back to where you just were? I will have to try that, but I think I am fine with making them invisible. Thanks for the help
In reply to Thanks, did not understand… by R. L. F.
You can prevent more measures to fix a system by using system breaks, but yes, removing the barlines might result in more notes to fix into a system. For measureless that seems the intention though, doesn't it?
In reply to You can prevent more… by Jojo-Schmitz
YES, in measureless, it seems to just present problems. System breaks did not function there also. Just nothing really helped because it was not working. Why I started this thread! But, some of the things we have discussed here at least make things possible for a barlines less score. Thanks for the thoughts
In reply to YES, in measureless, it… by R. L. F.
Split the measure at the place you want a system break, then apply a system break
In reply to Split the measure at the… by Jojo-Schmitz
Sorry Jojo, I think we are talking about different things. I was still talking about measureless. The system break would not work and there are no measures to split. ( if you were responding to me, think I am getting lost)
In reply to Sorry Jojo, I think we are… by R. L. F.
I were responding to you. Use Tools > Measures > Split at the place you'd want a system break. Them apply the system break
In reply to I were responding to you… by Jojo-Schmitz
I used the 'system break' from the pallettes menu , layout. It would not do anything, as I have said.
In reply to I used the 'system break'… by R. L. F.
It sure causes the system to break at the measure boundary
In reply to It sure causes the system to… by Jojo-Schmitz
I am not sure if I completely follow. I had one 'measure' one system long. When entering notes they were simply bunching together. I could manually move notes along the measure and any previous notes moved also. Rests did not move and you had to guess where you wanted them to land. Farther along everything was just getting squished. And NOTHING I tried helped, including trying system break. There was no flow of anything . No wrap from system to system, of anything. It was just a worthless mess.
So, maybe it was the timing of when I was doing things. I do not know and since I doubt I will ever try it again, at this point I do not care. Thanks for all the suggestions and info. I will be trying a few things, just for future reference.
In reply to I am not sure if I… by R. L. F.
As stated several times, do the Join operation AFTER you have entered all the notes and lyrics. Let MuseScore figure out the spacing and system wrap in ordinary measures (whether they are "meaningful" measures or not). Then Join the measures on each staff (and hide that last barline at the end of each system) so they look like there are no measures.
The music is in measure. You cannot get away from that in MuseScore. But you can make it appear to be measureless for print/display purposes.
In reply to As stated several times, do… by TheHutch
I do not remember, at this time, that the handbook directions(which I was told to follow) said to enter everything before doing the 'join'. If it did, I think even I would have done it that way.
And in the future if I ever need a mearsureless piece I will not use that function. Since just simply hiding the time sign and barlines gives the same result for print/display purposes. And it does not default to a possible different time sign than what was used. Whether that matters I do not know or care.
I thought there had to be something special to make things work. This is why I did the post!
In reply to Yes, the layout is different… by Jojo-Schmitz
I tried deleting time sign and barlines. I was able to do time sign, but it just changes to a default 4/4 as I think the Dutch has surmised. This just makes things worse for any placements that may have been done in the previous time sign. For me invisible would still be the best and least problematic.
I also tried deleting barlines, but had no success. Obviously I am missing something. But, if it again is just going to mess with any spacing I may have done, I will stay with just making them invisible.
Thanks for the help
In reply to I tried deleting time sign… by R. L. F.
Don't delete time sig, disable it in staff properties
In reply to Don't delete time sig,… by Jojo-Schmitz
Oh, that's how you do it!
Also, don't delete the barlines. Instead, join the measures a) with the Join tool or b) with the Measure Properties dialog. (They do the same thing, just different methods of accessing the same effect.)
In reply to Oh, that's how you do it!… by TheHutch
I can only say when I joined the measures on a system into one, nothing with spacing functioned. So, even if I needed barless again, I would not use the join function. That is just me though.
In reply to Oh, that's how you do it!… by TheHutch
No, the measure properties dialog works on a single measure only, while the Join to works on multiple deleted measures
In reply to No, the measure properties… by Jojo-Schmitz
Seems like what beer fox mentioned might be the easiest to use early or modern music.
In reply to Don't delete time sig,… by Jojo-Schmitz
I will have to try that. But, is that really any different result than deleting or hiding. Seems like another option with a similar result. Thanks...I will check it out to see what happens.
In reply to I tried deleting time sign… by R. L. F.
To joint measures either use Tools > Measures > Join selected measures, ot Ctrl+Del the baseline.
In reply to To joint measures either use… by Jojo-Schmitz
Tools > measures > join is what I used that started all of this thread. It then lead to nothing really functioning properly, spacing wise. For me, anyway.
In reply to Tools > measures > join is… by R. L. F.
@R. L. F.
FWIW here is my personal take on this. At least think about it.
Music was notated a certain way in Medieval times. They didn't use bar lines partially because the sense of rhythm and movement was different for certain kinds of music. The fact remains that, despite the insistence that we need to recreate their music without bar lines, we have no idea how this music was performed. There are traditions that may or may not be accurate. There are vague descriptions. There seems to be the idea that if we put bar lines in this kind of music, that we are somehow dishonoring the music. How dare we change how they wrote this stuff down. Never mind that writing it down was more of an afterthought. The choir didn't file in and open their hymnals to page 32 and begin. And none of this music was ever intended to be reproduced vocally or in print some 1000 or so years later.
We don't notate music that way any more. Nor do we need to. Again, there are those who will disagree. oh well.
In reply to @R. L. F. FWIW here is my… by bobjp
I would agree for the most part. I would also add for early music before barlines and just after adding, most of the time signatures were associated with the rhythm and flow of the text. The time signs might therefore change often. That obviously would not make it easy back then to add barlines.
I understand those wanting to represent the music as true as can be, but for those of us more used to working/performing from measures, having something is preferable.
I just had a piece that I preferred not having the convention of measures/barlines to provide a formulated guide for performance. I got there but not as I had hoped. It is done now and I probably will not have reason to do so again. If, by chance, I will not be using the 'join measures' function in musescore. That I know.
Thanks for the thoughts
In reply to I would agree for the most… by R. L. F.
I assume you used standard note values and pitch. If you did, it is totally possible to write things that may or may not have anything to do with bar lines. We are used to bar lines. Many years ago, I played in a recorder group. Now and then we played music without bar lines. Some find playing music with out them to be more free. I was constantly concentrating on how to play the written note values, that playing this stuff was not as enjoyable. I'm pretty sure the listener has no idea if what they are hearing has bar lines or not.
And this was music that was originally written without bar lines. I'm all for authenticity. So I was interested in playing it for the educational value. However, I found that in the four part music we played, parts were somewhat independent of each other. Sure they wove in and out of each other in interesting ways. But there didn't seem to be any direction. I don't mean melody and harmony. Of course there was none of that. I mean parts oozed around each other with no place to go. And then the music ended.
Anyway, sorry to keep bothering you. Good luck to you.
In reply to I would agree for the most… by R. L. F.
Have you thought of using Mensurstrich and then hiding those lines? This is how I do it - it is very straightforward, and you can still control the spacing:
https://musescore.org/en/handbook/4/mensural-notation-and-mensurstrich
In reply to Have you thought of using… by Brer Fox
Very interesting. I wish this had been pointed out when I first asked. It obviously would work for modern music just as well as early.
As I have said just hiding time sign and barlines works also, but this probably is easier!
Thanks for the comment