Bagpipe Instrument Transposing
The bagpipe is a transposing instrument......but maybe not quite like some other transposing instruments.
If I open a new score in 2.0.2 and add Bagpipe instrument it says it is Play transposing 2 Major Second down.To me this transposing is wrong for Scottish Great Highland bagpipe. It should be Play transposing up 1 Minor second. So written music for bagpipe in A major plays as Bb Major (1 minor second higher than written) and Bagpipe music written in D Major plays as Eb major (1 minor second higher than written.
I would be grateful to have your views on this and how do I go about adding other "Bagpipes" to the instrument list that have different transposing. For example......
Scottish Smallpipes OR Highland pipes pitched in A .......No transposition....plays and reads at concert pitch.
playing the key note A on the music sheet results in the sound A at 440.
Scottish Smallpipes pitched in D ....Transposing..... written music normally in key D Major. Playing the key note A as read on the music sheet results in the sound of D at 587 .....Sounds 5 semitones higher than written music.
Scottish Great Highland Bagpipe (Older makes of these were pitched written A sounds at Bb 467 but nowadays competition players play A and sounds approx 475 - 480) There is also a modern concert version of GHB which is pitched at written A sounds Bb 467. The music is normally written in key of D major but sometimes thought of as A major because of the flattened 7th note "G" which is actually a flattened G natural. The written music for bagpipe sounds as transposed up 1 semitone (D major to Eb major OR A major to Bb major.
OR do I just change the transposing interval by using the stave properties each time
Comments
You can create a template, set up for your transpositioning needs
In reply to You can create a template, by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, OK, I will try that, I just thought there should be separate instruments for the different bagpipe types, similar the what there is for say the Brass instruments.
Thanks for your help...........
In reply to Yes, OK, I will try that, I by muselt
This was meant as a Workaround. Adding more Bagpipes might be the real fix.
We'd just need to know names, ranges and transposition Infos for each proposed addition.
And all that preferably in an issue (https://musescore.org/en/node/add/project-issue/musescore)
Hi, muselt,
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I did some test editing Bagpipe sound with MS 2.02 and default Soundfont FluidR3Mono_GM.sf3. I'm no specialist for "Scottish Highland Pipe", I even do not possess any bag pipe at all... But in my testscore on that "new sound features", there were some difficulties, that needed to be worked around.
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What kind of Bagpipe do you play?
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I suppose: Highland Pipe or French Biniou
(Remark: Other Pipes like "Borderpipe" or "Schäferpfeife" will use other mensuration, scales and embellishments.)
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Pitch Range: G4 - A5 (MIDI)
Mensuration (Scale): A-Mixolydian = 2 #
Transposition. -2 Halftones (Big second down)
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How does the "typical bagpipe-score" looks like?
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Load down any example-sheet from
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> https://armycadets.com/become-a-cadet/what-youll-do/piping-and-drumming…
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... and you'll see typical "Bagpipe score". Normally, there is only one staff (with notes for the chant plus embellishments) showing a treble (G) - clef. --- NO sharps or flats!
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I don't use this score... Why? There is no notation of the "bourdon-drones" at all... But: If you want MuseScore to sound like a bagpipe, you'll have to write some notes for your "drone-pipes", too (or it will be a "solo for chant only"...)
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... When you edit the "Bagpipe"-Score from the start, just edit as key "C-Major) " - and you 'll see the transposition for this bagpipe automatically inserted: -2 Halftones (= big second down) Two sharps appear behind the clef (thus MuseScore show's that you' should use "F# and C#" as default.)
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To obtain that "drones sound", you could use a "second voice" in your staff... and get one difficulty by that: In this case, there are no separate dynamics (volume-adjust) for chant and drones.
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Therefore, I prefer to develop my own "notation-system" - without any transposition. It is derived from a plain "piano"-score. I notate the "chant" on right hand (treble clef) staff, the drones on the "left hand" (bass-clef) staff. Only the Label "Piano" is exchanged with "Bagpipe", and, of course, the sound by means of the pulldown-menu in the "Mixer" [F10].
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As the mensuration (Scale) is A-Mixolydian and has two sharps (C-# and F#), I set the whole thing to the Key of "D-Major" (= 2 #). Then set a number of "A"s behind the bass clef, select all and tie them [ctrl][a], [+] There are the drone pipes, all you'll have to do now is write down chant-notes and embellishments
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You might download and listen the two attached files, for example, or look at
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https://musescore.org/en/node/83401 (contains: Battle of the Somme, Highland Laddie)
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As you might see in my examples, I don't use "embellishments" from the palette. Instead, I write all "grace notes" as acciaccaturae myself (as workaround for timing-difficulties with embellishment, see https://musescore.org/en/node/82941)
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Hope, this hints are of some use for you
Sincerely
FarrierPete
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PS: Some further links for the piper:
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> http://www.potomacvalleyscottishfiddle.org/public/the_pipers_corner/...
> https://armycadets.com/become-a-cadet/what-youll-do/piping-and-drumming/...
In reply to Hi, muselt, . I did some test by FarrierPete
Hi Pete, Thanks for reply
I have looked through some of your postings and downloaded some of your arrangements of the tunes. I know the actual tunes and can play them on the Scottish Highland Bagpipe. Take "The Battle of the Somme". This tune is written in Key of D major but its sound to the listener is up 1 semitone higher so it sounds as in key of Eb. Example the key note A on the written score corresponds to a Bb on the Concert score and a D on the written score corresponds to a Eb on the concert score. I changed the play transposition to be 1 semitone up in the stave properties and set the highest note to be Bb5. The score is attached, you can switch in and out of concert pitch to see the correspondance. This is how Scottish piper see the pipe music. Modern competition bagpipes play with Bb at 475 to 480 instead of normal Bb of 467 but the music is still written and read the same. Also some play a concert bagpipe which is set at Bb 467 to match playing with other instruments.
Regards the cadets music not having any sharps.....because we are all pipers pipe music was traditionally printed without sharps because we only had the 9 notes that were tuned to our drones. The key the tunes were in depended on the tune...."The Battle of Somme"...has alot of Ds and phrase and part ending in D so key of D major. Other tunes with alot Phrase and parts ending in A would be in key of A major. And we are talking about the written music...not what it sounds like......it would still be up 1 semitone to put in concert pitch.
Different from say a Bb cotnet....You read a C on the music sheet and the sound comes ou as Bb.
Regards your modified sounds etc. the sound is very realistic but the drones waver and sound out of tune. The drones sound needs to be perfectly constant with I assume no reverb or chorous to distort it...??
In reply to Hi Pete, Thanks for reply I by muselt
YES, SIR! Understood and accepted: REAL Bagpipe-Scores on Paper are "Military Secret: Confidental" and for instructed military personal, only. (Sorry to say, Sir, but: I'm a civilian B^/ That's shocking, indeed!)
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Sorry for that misconception, muselt, 'twas my fault. And thanks for listening and for your answer.
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So, your intent is: To create "confidental" scores as .PDF on screen or as printout Paper. My intent is to create a score that makes that new-fashioned "Computer-Software MuseScore" sound like Bagpipe/-s. Something different, indeed. ("And now to something completely different!" - Monty Python)
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I fear, you'll really have to edit some transpositing instrument of your own (with staff properties), see
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https://musescore.org/en/handbook/transposition-0#transposing-instrumen…
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... and save that score as another template for further use.
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Transposition and transposing Instruments: Something similar to your problem might pop up, if a 19th-century-composer wanted to use "Horn in F". >>Double-Transposition<<... the composer would write a part as "transposed notes", and the hornist would transpose them a second time - in mind - while playing. Not easy to understand, what and why, for all members of the party!
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By the way, muselt: Do you know, why the Romans built that "Hadrian's Wall" in Britannia? As their legions marched AD 49 (under reign of Claudius) to Caledonia and for that had to cross the river Tyne, it is told that about 600 bagpipers approached them, coming out of the caledonian forest. Then the Romans turned around immediatly, went back over the river - and started building the Hadrian's wall behind them! B^) Might be, they had serious reasons for that, hadn't they?
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Sincerely
FarrierPete
In reply to YES, SIR! Understood and by FarrierPete
Hi FarrierPete.....Thanks for reply.....I will replay to the bits below....
"Understood and accepted: REAL Bagpipe-Scores on Paper are "Military Secret: Confidental" and for instructed military personal, only. (Sorry to say, Sir, but: I'm a civilian B^/ That's shocking, indeed!)".........
..........I do not know why you say Military Secret and confidential and only for military.....Bagpipes are widely played by anybody.....I am civilian and play the bagpipes
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" So, your intent is: To create "confidental" scores as .PDF on screen or as printout Paper. My intent is to create a score that makes that new-fashioned "Computer-Software MuseScore" sound like Bagpipe/-s. Something different, indeed. ("And now to something completely different!" - Monty Python)".............
My intent seems to be the same as yours.......I want to create a score on Musescore where I can use Bagpipes music as written for pipers, transpose it to its sounding concert pitch and combine it with other instruments Brass, woodwind, keyboard etc to make a full ensemble score that a conductor can read in concert pitch and each other instrument player can have his own transposed score he reads as normal for that instrument. Yes I also want to be able to print it out.
Muse score is capable of doing most of it. The problem is the sound of the bagpipe instrument and drones and the problem playing embellishments. Also the problem that Musescore treats bagpipe as a transposing instrument transposing the written score to sound 2 semitones.??? This is what happens for say a Bb cornet....it is down 2 semitones but the bagpipe should be up 1 semitone (highland bagpipe). Yes I understand it can be changed by the user and saved in templates but this is not the way other instruments are dealth with.
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"I fear, you'll really have to edit some transpositing instrument of your own (with staff properties)".......Yes that is OK but all I am saying is Bagpipe is a standard instrument like other instruments so have a bagpipe in the list of instruments like the rest with the proper transposing.
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" and the hornist would transpose them a second time - in mind - while playing.".........No it is not the same as this for the bagpipe. The bagpipe player reads the music sheet which is written in the key of D major or A major depending on the tune and the sound will come out 1 semitone higher. The piper will not change his normal play fingering or read any transposed notes to suit the music arrangement. Other instruments may have to transpose to the pipers key Eb or Bb to play in unison or harmony.
Regards the gracenotes pallatte the only one that can be used it the shortest one the first one in the table. I have recorded the sound from your tunes using Audacity and looked at the waveform of the individual notes.......To me it looks like the Attack fadein and end fade is too long for both the main notes and the grace note. This makes the notes sound as starting and stopping too softly.......Bagpipes are played at constant wind pressure so sounds suddenly start and stop.
Can these properties be adjusted by the user or is it part of the sound font. Can sound fonts be edited..?????
There are many other bagpipe music writers and players on the web that can do this sort of thing for bagpipe music but most of them are for bagpipe only and doesnt let inclusion of other instruments of transposing. This is the advantage of Musescore if it could play and write bagpipe music.
Thanks for your help and hope this gives what I hear from a pipers point of view......
Regards
It is transposed down a major second. The one bagpiper I was watching was going on and on about the starting pitch being an "E," and she was with a doubt playing an F # (which is a major second above). She's referring to the sheet music and what she sees on the score. The exact same pitch I've heard over and over from bagpipe marching bands...always playing an F # as their starting note. I have perfect pitch, so I am not making this up.
In reply to It is transposed down a… by BelleLight
I think her bagpipes were modified
In reply to I think her bagpipes were… by s1114182721
6-9 years later??
In reply to 6 years later?? by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, long time. I use musescore from time to time mainly for ordinary tunes not written in bagpipe scales and see how they transpose to A major, D major or G major. and it help me re-writing them in scale for bagpipe. But as I said in other posts the bagpipe is a just (harmonic) scale with 2 drones , 1 is 2 octaves lower than lowA and other drone is 1 octave lower than lowA, playing constant no vibrato.... no nothing.... just a pure absolute steady drone tone, that must be perfectly in tune with each note on the chanter. The chanter cannot be chromatic or some of the notes will be out of tune with the drones. and the pitch is higher than concert 440.
I quickly looked at the later versions of tunes posted here and they now play better than older versions, embellishments are more distinct and more in rythmn but the drone sounds as though playing a vibrato or wavering especially in Highland Laddie.
What I did here on my end was to change the transposition properties of the Bagpipe from Down a Major Second to Up a Minor Second & boom Middle C sounds as the C Sharp above it. To me it only took a few seconds to get it fixed.
In reply to What I did here on my end… by s1114182721
It is a while since I looked at this in detail, but Yes, Bagpipe sound is transposed up from what the written bagpipe music reads. ..... But the old Musescore sound fonts transposed it down automatically.
But the Bagpipe is a harmonic just scale so wont match chromatic intervals anyway. If Bagpipe A was 440 as written on the bagpipe music sheet, if you consider that transposed up a semitone or Minor second would in concert chromatic be Bb 466. But bagpipe A is 480 or above. If I set my chromatic tuner to have A=480 instead of A=440 the reading on the chromatic tuner as I play up the bagpipe scale the tuner will read.... A, B, C# flat by about 15 cents, D, E, F# about 15 cents flat, G about 32 cents flat, A. The lowG below A is also flat by 32 cents on the tuner.
And yes we blow the bagpipes up and generally sound E to start with then play tune. Us pipers call it E, it is played with top 2 fingers front on, and on bagpipe music sheet it is written as E, but will sound a F# or higher depending on pitch of chanter.