Trouble adding lyrics
Hi. I am writing a wedding hymn for my daughter and having trouble adding the lyrics to the music. When I enter the lyrics the music immediately starts moving to the right, even though there is ample room between the syllables. By the time I get to the fourth bar (of 5) in the line it has pushed the last bar onto a new line of its own. I have tried experimenting with stretch but no success at all. If fact, after experimenting with stretch I tried deleting the lyrics and all the music piled over into the first bar, in one big heap. I'd appreciate any ideas about adding lyrics without affecting the music spacing, if possible. The movement of the first bar to the right is particularly problematic as stretch reduction seems to have a limited effect on it.
Unrelated topic:I am using 1.3 and would love to upgrade to 2.0 but I have done a lot of work transposing stuff for B flat instruments and am concerned I won't be able to access the older work through 2.0. Am I able to do so? Can I run both versions on the one computer somehow?
Thanks and regards,
garos
Edit: Sorry, attached are the original music, and a copy with some lyrics added. The second is as it ends up, no stretching attempted. As you can see, there is plenty of room for the lyrics to be closer together.
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Oaklee hymn.mscz | 3.56 KB |
| Wedding hymn.mscz | 3.96 KB |
Comments
Without seeing the actual score it is next to impossible to help here.
1.x and 2.0 can coexists peacefully on the same Computer. Only the Default Action when double-cliccking an mscz files starts whatever got installed last.
2.0 can open all 1.x score (but not vice versa). The formatting may have changed though.
Edit: you are using a rather large space value, 2.433, the default is 1.764. Increasing that by 2 steps, to 2.164 makes it barely fix the line, at 1.964 it all fits nicely and is still pretty big
In reply to Without seeing the actual by Jojo-Schmitz
Hi Jojo. Thanks so much for your reply. It took me some little time to find the space value :) not having needed to adjust that before, but it seems to do the trick. For some reason though, it is still pushing the notes to the right in some of the bars, e.g. the last 3 in the first line, and the last 2 in the second (see attached). I can manually adjust the notes if I need too, but it would be good if there was another way to do it.
I now just need to find a way to add verse numbers, although I am able to do it in a work-around way, and there is a forum topic I have bookmarked on it :)
Thanks again for your help.
garos.
PS It actually isn't nearly as noticeable on the file now I have uploaded it, but the end barline in the first line isn't quite where it should be.
In reply to Hi Jojo. Thanks so much for by garos
Verse numbers and barlines being off are amongst the things that are fixed in 2.0
In reply to Hi Jojo. Thanks so much for by garos
[ EDIT: posted the below before realizing you are still on a very old version; my comments apply to the current versions ]
Hmm, you must have changed the space value once before to make it so large - your score was actually enormous, the size that might be printed for children's books or for the visually impaired.
There should be no need to manually adjust notes. I don't see any issue with any of the notes you mention. What is your concern, exactly? The dotted quarter is *supposed* to get more room than the eighths and sixteenths; that is standard engraving practice. The barline at the end of the first system looks fine to me also.
Verse numbers are added just by including them with the lyric themselves. That is, if the first word of the second verse is "The", you type "2.The". You can incldue a "hard" space (Ctrl+Space) between the number and text if you like.
In reply to [ EDIT: posted the below by Marc Sabatella
Thanks for your replies. Everything has worked out okay, now. I would have preferred the first note in each bar to be closer to the barline, as some are, but particularly in the first bar as the lyrics are added the notes move right. I can live with what I have, though.
Marc, I intend to upgrade to version 2.0, but I'm completing a long-term transposition project and I'm concerned the new version would affect the formatting. The barline at the end of the line was being pushed away from the staff, but reducing stretch on the last bar alone fixed that. I don't recall altering the space value, but as I'm printing my transposed work on A4 it's very easy to read. :)
Thanks again,
garos.
Edit: Actually, I am still having much trouble with the first bar. Each time I add a verse the notes move further to the right. Compare the version with just one line of verse with that of 4 verses. (Sorry it is just a screen shot - I am reluctant to put up the whole piece at this stage.) Increase/decrease stretch has no effect whatever on the first bar. As you can see, there is plenty of room for it to all go left if there was a way to do it. Instead, when a verse is added it crams up the prior verses as it moves right and then I have to adjust the spacing of the lyrics where it has put them over the top of each other, and the whole thing looks progressively cramped as you read across.
In reply to Thanks for your replies. by garos
There's little we can tell from just a sxcreen shot. But since you're obviously not happy with the formatting in 1.3, you might at least consider loading into 2.0 to see if the very many improvements made to the layout algorithms help - I suspect they would.
The distance from the barline to the first note can be set using the setting Style / General / Measure / Barline to note distance (at least in 2.0; not sure about older versions).
In reply to Thanks for your replies. by garos
As mentioned earlier 1.x and 2.0 can coexist,so try to do this score, or new scores in general, in 2.0, keep using 1.3 for your existing.g s ores, for the time being at least.
In reply to As mentioned earlier 1.x and by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks to you both for persevering. I have downloaded MuseScore2 and the difference is indeed notable. The text is much clearer and the ability to adjust spacing with the arrow keys is great.
I am also able to adjust the barline-to-note distance, except for the first bar in each line, which is where my problem lies. Is there something which controls the distance from the time signature to the first note? I have uploaded a 'live' copy and you will notice the stretch doesn't work on the first bar, except to begin to move notes in the other bars without compressing the first at all.
I can use the contraction 'thru', which helps things, but compressing that first bar would be my preference. Note the distance between the first two quavers compared to the quavers in the other bars - it isn't all down to the word 'through'.
I might just have to live with it.
Regards,
garos.
In reply to Thanks to you both for by garos
Here it is using the SATB Closed Score template.
The distance between the 1st 2 quavers is down to the "3. Through" and the "prayers", the longest sylables attachedt to them. Yopu can try to play with the horizontal offsets of all 4 sylables under the 1st quaver (-1.5, maybe -2) and the longest sylable under the the 2. quaver (-1) this may improve the spacing between the notes
In reply to Thanks to you both for by garos
You wrote:
"Note the distance between the first two quavers compared to the quavers in the other bars - it isn't all down to the word 'through'."
That's correct. It also has to do with the word 'prayers' and also the fact that some verse numbers in your attachment are followed by one space and others by two spaces. Longer words and extraneous spaces take up room.
BTW: ('Thru' instead of 'Through' works well.)
You can also try this:
Use menu item: Style -> General -> Measure -> Clef/Key right margin - then lower the value to, say, 1.00sp.
Regards.
In reply to Thanks to you both for by garos
The space after the time signature is given by another option in that same dialog - you'll see options to set all sorts of default distances. Normally, though, you shouldn't be messing with any of these. The defaults are chosen to be consistent with how music is traditionally engraved and published. I don't see any special reason why you should wish you score here to deviate from established norms. You should start by returning to a more normal staff size unlessm as I said, you are producing this music for children or for the visually impaired.
Three things going on with spacing that are also traditional / normal but you might not be aware of:
1) The distance from the barline or the time to the first note includes the lyric. So if you have a long lyric attached to the first note, then it it is correct that the note is further to the right thsn it would be otherwise. If this didn't happen, the lyric would ovewrlap the barline. But assuming your music is purely vocal - no notes without lyrics - you can safely reduce these distances more than the default since the lyric really doesn't need as space between it and the barline as a note would.
2) In addition to the stretrch factor, there is also the minimum note distance (same dialog) that puts a lower limit on close notes can be placed. And this applies to lyrics as well. Reducing stretch beyond that point will have no effect; the minimum distances will be preserved. If you don't mind lyric syllables being pushed closer, you can reduce this as well.
3) Spacing within a line should be consistent, so that if one eighth note takes a certain amount of space, all eighth notes on that line should take the same amount of space. That is why a long syllable on one note increases the space on all notes. Again, this is normal & correct spacing according to the traditional practices of music engraving, although realistically, it is also normal for editors to employ some discretion and move some notes closer together than what this rule would dictte, so you are welcome to do the same.
If your goal is to simply fit those first few measures on one line while still obeying standard music engraving practice, here's what I'd recommend:
- return staff space to normal (1.764mm)
- in Style / General / Measure, reduce "Spacing" to 1 (this sets the the default to which further stretch is applied, so it's like selecting all and decreasing stretch two notches), reduce Barline to note distance to 0.4sp and note to barline distance to 0.8sp, reduce minimum note spacing to 0.4sp, reduce Clef/Key right margin to 1.5sp
These change will allow the music to fit with a bit of wiggle room for manual adjustment should it be necessary.
In reply to The space after the time by Marc Sabatella
Again, thanks for all your replies. I will look more thoroughly at the suggestions when I have time.
Regards,
garos.
In reply to Again, thanks for all your by garos
Hi, just an update. I need more time to sort out MuseScore 2, so I worked a fix in the old version to get my score looking about how I wanted it to look.
Attached is a hymn in what I believe would be a quite standard set-out for this type of music, and a partial view of my score.
In the hymn you can see the verse numbers are well to the left, and the first notes are close to the time signature. This is impossible to achieve if the number is 'part' of the first syllable, so I ended up inserting a 1/32 bar at the beginning of each line and attaching the numbers to a note in this bar. I then set the note and barline invisible, and dragged the rest of the line back over the first hidden bar. Crude, I know, but since I want to print it, not play it, it is effective.
Perhaps in some future version of MuseScore the verse numbers could be added as text attached to, say, the time signature? Just a thought.
I did observe that in 2.0 it is possible to move the note heads manually by double clicking and using the arrow keys, but the stems no longer move along with the note heads. Am I missing something?
I look forward to becoming more familiar with MuseScore 2.0.
Thanks and regards,
garos.
In reply to Hi, just an update. I need by garos
Stems move automatically once you complete the operation, but this is not the best / easiest way of moving notes. That's what the Inspector is for - the wondow that shows on the right of your screen (View / Inspector to re-open it if you have closed it for some reason). The Chord / Horizontal Offset and/or Segment / Leading Space parameters will give you more control.
A much simpler way to get verse numbers to not be considered part of the lyric would be to smply enter them as staff text, then manually move them. Or, again, use the Inspector for more precise control. No need for all that fussing with invisible measures.