Any idea what Wagner intends with these dynamic marking?
These two screen captures are from the same spot in different editions of the same score, Die Walkure Act III Scene I.
I'm a bit perplexed by the hairpin diminuendo combined with the "cresc." text. Which is it, > or <? What's supposed to happen with the dynamics?
I can't get the intent in recordings either.
It's on IMSLP45497 page 123 of 137 in the pdf and IMSLP341993 page 182 of 459 in the pdf.
Thanks,
Comments
If it helps, a larger screen capture:
![Wagner Q3.PNG]( "Wagner Q3.PNG")
In reply to If it helps, a larger screen… by marty strasinger
I suggest that you drink lots of beer and then do what comes naturally.🤣
I do honestly believe the intention is that the orchestra get louder while still doing the decrescendo on the tied notes as in the previous two measures you show. It seems this will have to be driven by the strings and possibly Brunhilda. If I were trying to make it playback correctly I think I would put an invisible mp on the notes with the hairpin (velocity change set to about 15) and let the others (including the VC with missing dynamics) do the normal cresc. I'm not real familiar with Wagner so listening to this part of the opera might give a better answer.
In reply to If it helps, a larger screen… by marty strasinger
Cresc, also deals with intensity, not just volume. In this case, maybe a tad bit of anticipation.
In reply to Cresc, also deals with… by bobjp
I’m kind of thinking that mike320’s first suggestion is the way to go. The score has a lot of cases that are either poor engraving practice or else very unconventional/not clear direction in the use of hairpins and cresc/dim text. Sometimes it’s obvious which is which, often not. Like when the text “cresc” is inserted between the arms of a < hairpin, or one instrument uses a hairpin while another uses text in the same measure. I am especially fond of “<<<<“ which sometimes means one long crescendo but sometimes is meant as “p
I seem to recall having seen this exact question before (perhaps even by yourself?)
If memory serves me right, the "cresc" indication runs from the previous system and started from piano up till here (where it is a reminder repeat text); while each step within it has the diminuendo hairpin indication for local fadeout.
So the desired playback is a bit like an increasingly loud "sigh" on each note.
p>pp mp>p mf>mp f>mf f<
In reply to I seem to recall having seen… by jeetee
Thanks, and I recall that your observation was spot-on in that previous case. However I am doubtful it applies here.
In reply to I seem to recall having seen… by jeetee
If I remember, his previous question had a long cres. that started before all of the hairpins that were the opposite direction so what you said was clear to me. In this case there is simply a cresc. and dim. hairpin on the same note followed on the next beat by a louder dynamic (f).
In reply to If I remember, his previous… by mike320
Tomorrow I will have a look at the parts on IMSLP and see if there is clarity to be found in them.
In reply to Tomorrow I will have a look… by marty strasinger
Closure- On review of individual parts, it seems the hairpin is actually a poorly drawn accent mark which is intended to go over the first note of the tied quarter+eighth note. The following is from the clarinet part:
![Wagner Q4.PNG]( "Wagner Q4.PNG")
Please see the third measure from the end.
Thanks everyone,
In reply to Closure- On review of… by marty strasinger
Very poorly draw, or the engraver simply grabbed the wrong symbol because it looked similar but two engravers would have done that. :/
In reply to Closure- On review of… by marty strasinger
That's a very big accent indeed!
Glad you figured it out.