Playback of crescendos and decrescendos during held notes
I've read multiple posts on this topic. None have given me the answer.
I understand that this is a fairly new feature. Maybe that is why the instructions to do it are not very detailed.
I've used Musescore for years in creating lead sheets, etc. But not much for playback.
People who post asking about this topic (hairpins on long notes) are told to share their score, so that the error can be discovered. However, I have a simpler approach. I have created a new score with a treble clef staff for the sole purpose of learning how to get hairpins on long notes to work.
I have loaded in 5 measures in 4/4 time. Measure 1 is 4 quarter notes. Measure 2 is a whole note. Measure 3 is 4 quarter notes (again). Measure 4 is a whole note again. The fifth measure is 4 quarter notes (again).
I am using the default trumpet soundfont.
On measure 2, I have entered a crescendo (hairpin) by clicking on the whole note, and then selecting the crescendo hairpin from the palette. On measure 4, I have entered a decrescendo using the same approach.
What are the EXACT steps I now need to get the crescendo and decrescendo to sound?
I've tried different things for a couple of hours. If I make the whole note 4 quarter notes instead, the crescendo or decrescendo sounds perfectly (the volume changes). But if then I tie the quarter notes together (a seeming workaround), the volume changes cease.
Hope this was clear. Can someone - who has done this successfully - please take the time to give a detailed response?
Many thanks!
Comments
Unless you tampered with soundfonts and synthesizer settings there's nothing special to be done. Single Note Dynamics just work, on instruments capable of doing them (so not on e.g. Piano).
But: using hairpins alone is not going to work, you need to the the program as well as the musician as to by how much to (de)crescendo, by adding dynamics before and after the hairpins or tweak their velocity change in Inspector (like the attached sample score does).
This is not at all a SND problem though, same applies to all hairpins
If it doesn't work for you in a certain example, please share it
If by default sound you mean Trumpet Expr. then Jojo is correct. If you don't have Expr. after the Trumpet with the default setup you won't get SND no matter what you do.
In reply to If by default sound you mean… by mike320
Yes, but the real problem here is the lack of dynamics as far as I can tell
In reply to Yes, but the real problem… by Jojo-Schmitz
Right, I'm trying to help cover all the likely problems.
In reply to Right, I'm trying to help… by mike320
Mike and Jojo, thanks for taking the time to respond. Jojo, the example was very useful, thanks.
If I use Expr. files, it works. I guess that if I want to use sound fonts that are single note instruments, but not Expr, then I am out of luck.
I wish that the handbook page on hairpins contained this information. It would have saved me hours of struggle!
In my case, I am looking for vocal Expr soundfonts. The oohs and aahs included with Musescore are OK, but not realistic enough for my tastes. I probably should ask this in a separate thread, but are there good vocal soundfonts out there (jazz choir, Take 6 style) that I can buy? When I do searches, all I see are "Best free soundfonts" or other similar items.
Or, will I have to wait until 4.0 when VST's are hopefully integrated?
In reply to Mike and Jojo, thanks for… by brainperspective
Hmm in the opening article you wrote: I am using the default trumpet soundfont. but now you're saying something entirely different.
The handbook page for hairpins does mention the need of dynamics, see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/hairpins#hairpin-playback
There are some other options for SND, which may work with other soundfont, see https://musescore.org/en/node/290616
In reply to Hmm you wrote: I am using… by Jojo-Schmitz
Jojo, I assumed that "trumpet" was the default, and that trumpet Expr was something different. I guess that I was mistaken. I wonder if you forgive mistakes by users relatively new to playback? Whatever, your example was still very useful, as it showed what to do for the velocity setting.
As for you comment about the handbook, it clearly does NOT say anything about Expr files. If it did, I would never have posted the question.
I do appreciate the link to other options. It may be over my head, but I will see if I can figure it out.
In reply to Jojo, I assumed that … by brainperspective
Well, if there is any default, that it is Grand Piano (and that is not capable of SND)
And the handbook is a WIKI, you can add to it ;-)
Then again, as this is all automatic, when using the default settings, there's not that much need of documenting it?
In reply to Jojo, I assumed that … by brainperspective
Real instruments that are capable of SND (like trumpet but not piano) will have SND enabled for all sounds in you use the CC11 method described in the How to link provided by Jojo.
In reply to Real instruments that are… by mike320
Thanks Mike. I tried the CC11 method using regular trumpet. Followed the directions. Couldn't get it to work. Tried multiple times. But if I returned to Expr trumpet, it worked perfectly.
Your previous advice to only use Expr files still seems like the best answer. I've been a musician (trumpet player and composer) for over 40 years. I realize that it gives me no expertise in MIDI. But to not be able to do something so basic in music is frustrating. Hoping that when 4.0 comes out in a year or so, this issue will be resolved.
In reply to Thanks Mike. I tried the… by brainperspective
Note again though that if you don't change any default, this "issue" doesn't exist. It is already solved. You're only getting this issue because you're not using the defaults.
If you start a score and choose the Trumpet as an instrument you don't even have to go into the mixer to change sounds or whatever; it just works.
In reply to Note again though that if… by jeetee
Note again though that if you don't change any default, this "issue" doesn't exist. It is already solved. You're only getting this issue because you're not using the ****VERY LIMITED*** defaults.
There, fixed it for you. :)
In reply to Note again though that if… by brainperspective
What is limited about them?
In reply to What is limited about them? by jeetee
The Expr. defaults are limited because in order to achieve SND I am forced to assign instruments that I don't want to use. For example, can you recommend a vocal Expr. file that doesn't sound like a synth (and works in Musescore)? I have already asked this, with no response.
Here is the quote: "In my case, I am looking for vocal Expr soundfonts. The oohs and aahs included with Musescore are OK, but not realistic enough for my tastes. I probably should ask this in a separate thread, but are there good vocal soundfonts out there (jazz choir, Take 6 style) that I can buy? When I do searches, all I see are "Best free soundfonts" or other similar items."
(as an aside, and as a trumpet player, I wouldn't use the poor default trumpet sound, unless it was buried in an ensemble)
In my current score, I will have to either drop SND, or accept a poorer sound quality. That is not a choice that I would wish on any composer.
I get the sense that some people here are defensive about Musescore. But I actually like the notation package, and have used it for years. And while I have little choice but to accept the current limitations of the playback functions - as per the programmers, it is still somewhat early in playback development - I eagerly await the expanded capabilities of 4.0. Nothing more complicated than that.
In reply to The Expr. defaults are… by brainperspective
I'm sorry that you experienced my reply as defensive; it was a genuine (but surprised) request what you found limited about having the thing you requested (in your original topic opening post) work by default out of the box.
So by "limited" you actually meant "I prefer different sounds". I wrongly assumed by "limited" you were referring to your original post in this thread, where you had a problem with getting SND to work on your score, which just happens to work out of the box.
Now I come to understand that you refer to the MuseScore soundfont as limited instead. No argument there, the default soundfont (as any other soundfont) is a tradeoff between quality and size. And in the case of MuseScore's font also limited by the General MIDI standard for instrument sound definitions.
There is not really something to fix as it, speaking from a functional point of view, SND works. There is even an elaborate choice of using different CCs than the default if you wish to use soundfonts that use one of those methods instead of the method used (among others) by the MuseScore Default soundfont.
Supporting other soundfonts and methods besides the default doesn't sound so limited to me; nothing more complicated than that.
As for your subsequent query for finding decent vocal soundfonts the answer is (imho) they just don't really exist. If you ever come across one, please add it to the handbook soundfonts links section. You are not the first user over the years yearning for such a soundfont, nor will you be the last.
And if that soundfont supports one of the CC 1, 2, 4, or 11 message types for volume control, then SND will work with MuseScore as well.
Hopefully with MS4 and VST support you'll be able to find plugins that better cater to your desires.
In reply to I'm sorry that you… by jeetee
I suspect that you haven't read most of my comments in this thread, as you seem to be beating the dead horse.
I already clarified that I did initially not use defaults. If you had read further, you would know that.
You are incorrectly stating that I am calling the soundfont quality the main issue. Soundfont quality is an ongoing debate, but that is a red herring. The issue is in how Musescore implements SND. If you had read further, you would know that I have found that only Expr files work with any ease. Any other solution requires some serious hoop jumping that I have been unable to do so far.
Until Musescore can use any soundfont for SND "out of the box," it is limited in my view.
Hard to believe that I have to keep making these same points. I am a composer who finds that the playback part of the program has limitations which directly affect the quality of my work. Instead of lecturing me about how I am wrong, or imply that I am changing my story as the thread progresses (I'm not), how about actually understanding my perspective first?
I do appreciate your comment that the type of fonts I seek do not exist. So far, that seems to be the case.
In reply to I suspect that you haven't… by brainperspective
> *"I suspect that you haven't read most of my comments in this thread, as you seem to be beating the dead horse.
I already clarified that I did initially not use defaults. If you had read further, you would know that."*
No, I have, and have now even done so again. Consider doing the same to my initial reply. You know, the one where I stated a simply fact and you insisted on throwing an opinion into it.
> "You are incorrectly stating that I am calling the soundfont quality the main issue."
Yes, I'm stating that you called that the (2nd) issue. I'll even quote the thing you already quoted yourself for that states that yourself:
"In my case, I am looking for vocal Expr soundfonts. The oohs and aahs included with Musescore are OK, but not realistic enough for my tastes."
How is calling the included sounds "not realistic enough" not a soundfont quality issue then?
> "The issue is in how Musescore implements SND."
You mean, the issue is that MuseScore implements SND according to the 4 (not one, but 4!) most common ways found in soundfonts worldwide. It didn't stop at just the way used by their own soundfont, but went past that and supported 3 other methods as well; just because there doesn't seem to be a standardisation for that in the soundfont formats?
> "Until Musescore can use any soundfont for SND "out of the box," it is limited in my view."
Until Soundfont creators actually implement any one of the 4 methods to support SND, they are very limited in my view.
> "Hard to believe that I have to keep making these same points."
Hard to believe that you still seem to be missing the main counterpoint: There is hardly anything left for MuseScore to fix wrt to implementing SND for the soundfont format.
> "I am a composer who finds that the playback part of the program has limitations which directly affect the quality of my work."
I don't question that, not even in the slightest. But when you use a car that can fit anything from 14 to 19" wheels as long as they have holes matching the bolting holes from the car; and you somehow like a wheel that doesn't have those holes; is it really the car manufacturers issue that the wheel manufacturer chose to use different hole placement Or in the analogy case, the wheel manufacturer only provided two of the five required holes?
> 'Instead of lecturing me about how I am wrong"
Please read my responses again. I have done (to my knowledge) no such thing.
> "or imply that I am changing my story as the thread progresses (I'm not)"
Again, I have done such a thing. I did point out that you started your topic with one issue (SND not working by default, a statement you indeed corrected and I replied to in my initial reply as well, acknowledging that) and then moved on to a different topic (looking for a different vocal sound). Changing subject is not the same as changing a story.
So once again I fail to see why you feel that I've implied such a thing. I'm a rather straightforward guy; read my replies for what is written in them; if you feel the need to derive implied intentions on them, feel free to ask about those for clarification (as I did when I didn't grasp the limitation comment). English isn't my native language, so perhaps my choice of words is what's leading you to these derived conclusions about my intent. So allow me to clarify that intent: I'm trying to both help out users, both in what they're trying to achieve as well in helping them understand the "why" of what they're experiencing.
> "*, how about actually understanding my perspective first?"
Your perspective seems to be that deviating from the defaults is not easy enough in your case, even though it is just as simple as changing a single dropdown value.
But yes, I get it that there's a learning curve to figuring out soundfonts. I also get that many soundfont creators don't document which method of SND they support or even if *they support it at all. All I've been trying to get across to you is that MuseScore can't change nor autodetect that. It's a limitation imposed on you by the soundfont creator not providing the information. It's also a limitation imposed on both yourself and MuseScore by the soundfont format.
So even though MuseScore is not really in the ability to do more to support SND for soundfonts; they are working on improving playback for future versions; including, but not limited to VSTs. Which also isn't the holy grail and will come with its own set of (un-)supported things, depending (in the first years) on MuseScore's level of implementation; but also on the level of implementation of the chosen VST plugin.
And just like with SoundFonts, if you choose a VST that doesn't support the interface for SND, it won't work and there won't be anything for MuseScore to do about that.
It's not about beating the dead horse; it's about understanding why the horse died ;-)
In reply to > *"I suspect that you haven… by jeetee
Jeetee,
I feel that you really are trying to be helpful. But your philosophical overview does not solve my issue, or make the limits I face any easier to swallow. And further, you seem more intent on making "counterpoints" than actually offering realistic solutions.
When you say, "Your perspective seems to be that deviating from the defaults is not easy enough in your case, even though it is just as simple as changing a single dropdown value," I can only shake my head. A single dropdown value? That is not my experience, which you seem to be dismissing.
How many hours do I spend on getting this to work, or responding to posts before calling it a day? I've reached my limit. At this point, I will simply accept the limits in Musescore (and MIDI in general) and go back to arranging.
I wish you well.
In reply to Jeetee, I feel that you… by brainperspective
....or when you load instruments into your score via the mixer (which you have to do anyway), choose the Expr. version. SND works. There really is no initial default setting for what gets loaded. There is "load to score", but that is harder to find than just doing it yourself.
True. The handbook is not very clear that the mixer is where you need to go to do this. Nor is it clear on the procedures. True, when someone asks for help, they are usually provided a link to the handbook. Most of the time this helps. Sometimes the handbook is clear as mud.
Sometimes the person asking for help isn't quite sure how to ask for what they want, and are provided a link to an irrelevant section.
If you use non default fonts, You have to go the CC11 route. But it's one or the other, not both.
In reply to ....or when you load… by bobjp
Bobjp,
Sorry I did not respond to you earlier. You have some interesting thoughts, but a lot of what you said earlier was just more philosophical counterpoint. It is not an avenue that I wish to pursue any further. Maybe someday I will be more in the mood to challenge some cherished beliefs expressed throughout this thread, but not today.
In general, we don't all see the world the same way. My strategy in working with people who ask for help in a forum, is to first try and see the problem from their perspective, rather than immediately challenging their worldview and implying that they are wrong. My experience in this thread was that I got too much of the latter and not enough of the former.
Regarding your last post, loading instruments with the mixer is not an issue. I asked for help early in the thread and received it. As I have already pointed out, I can now use the default fonts to achieve SND, but CC11 (with non-Expr fonts) does not work period. At this point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in and I must move on.
Thanks for chipping in.
In reply to Jeetee, I feel that you… by brainperspective
I am now wondering which soundfont you're attempting to use; if it is a free one, then someone on here can try it out as well and perhaps either confirm it not supporting SND or provide you with the settings that should work.
In reply to The Expr. defaults are… by brainperspective
What you describe, though, really has nothing to do with SND. Vocal synth sounds generally are terrible across the board, SND or no SND, pretty much in all soundfonts. But if you do find an alternate soundfont you like, you are free to use it, and SND won't prevent you from doing so. The soundfont may or may not support SND, or it may require you to make changes to MuseScores defaults in order to do so, but that's not really MuseScore's fault.
In reply to What you describe, though,… by Marc Sabatella
Here's the thing. Notation software isn't intended to produce quality playback. I understand that V 4 will be much better. Great. SND do work out of the box. But nothing works without being set up properly first. That means that you have to know the nomenclature and procedures. MuseScore fonts tend to have fast, slow, expressive and non expressive versions of the same sound. If you don't know that and what each does then sure it seems like things don't work. Personally I only have use for the fast expressive sounds. I have tried many other fonts and they all fall short. The CC11 workaround is not as smooth as expressive SND.
I am a composer concerned with playback. Yes playback affects what I write. I have the choice to write what I know to be true. Or write to the sounds I hear. This will be the conundrum of any composer in any medium. Not all that long ago I would write at the piano. Then arrange for whatever group I was writing for. Then go back to the arranging part to fix things that didn't work quite right. There is not much out of the box in either method.
In reply to What you describe, though,… by Marc Sabatella
Marc, I have read a lot of your posts. You are normally the voice of reason. So I will merely point out that your experience is different from mine. As a new user to the playback side of Musescore, I have had to learn a bunch of jargon just to be able to hold a conversion in this forum. I suspect that a few years from now, Musescore will be a whole lot easier for people like myself to use, and that a lot of hoops that you guys justify as "reasonable" will not exist down the road.
When you say that I am free to use an alternate soundfont, and "SND won't prevent me from doing so," that is not the same as saying that "Musescore will make it easy for you to do so." It is not easy in my experience., and so far I have had zero success. To me, this is a limitation. It is partly due to my own limits, I am sure, but also partly the difficulty of using Musescore without defaults.
When you say that it is "not really Musescore's fault," are you saying that SND could not be made easier? Or that the default limits in Musescore have reached a developmental conclusion?
Again, I hope we can agree that the limits of today typically become non-issues in the future as ease of use increases. Thus my wish to see 4.0. Maybe these are false hopes. Time will tell.
There are people here that love looking under the hood and making adjustments. I am not one of them. :)
In reply to Marc, I have read a lot of… by brainperspective
Again, it's not about looking under the hood. It's about knowing the software.
In Sibelius, when you create a score, respective instrument sounds are automatically loaded for playback. But they are generic. There are far better in the library. But you have to load them yourself the first time.
In Musescore, you can select a range of measures, even a block between staves. Then you can hit (for example) a hairpin and it is added to each part. That doesn't work in Sibelius.
In Sibelius, you can select a measure, hit play, and just that instrument starts playing from that point.
In MuseScore it is possible to use different free fonts. You pay (through the nose) for libraries that work in Sibelius.
All these things work out of the box in one program, but not in another. Some can be made to work by making some adjustments. Some not,
In reply to Marc, I have read a lot of… by brainperspective
What I am saying is that MIDI and sound fonts were not originally designed to support SND at all, so applications need to implement their own approaches. And yes, it means sometimes square pegs don’t fit in round holes without a little fiddling. But that’s not the fault of the hole any more than it is of the peg.
As for how it may change in the future, yes, MIDI 2.0 brings with it many new ideas and as applications and soundfonts and other tools begin standardizing around this, maybe hole and peg shapes will start to become more consistent. :-)