Nit: "Concert Band" does not order "Flügelhorn" (Bugles) correctly
Reported version
3.6
Type
Ergonomical (UX)
Frequency
Once
Severity
S4 - Minor
Reproducibility
Always
Status
closed
Regression
No
Workaround
Yes
Project
Hi,
when selecting "Concert Band", a common instrument is a Flugelhorn (dt. Flügelhorn) or Bugel.
It should be between Trumpets and Horns/Trombones somewhere with Cornets, but in fact it gets sorted after the Tuba.
They typically play similar motivs as the clarinets do (at least in German military marches).
I think this should be a default, although some might consider it as a breaking change.
Thanks,
Ben
Fix version
3.6.2
Comments
Same for brass bands and other groups.
Euphonium is only sorted correctly when in treble clef. The bass clef version gets sorted below the Flügelhorn.
In general, Concert bands doesn't have Flügelhorns or Bugels (at least not in any of the scores I have seen, mainly, based on Concert Band scores of US/UK/Dutch/Belgian/Italian publishers). But I know orchestras in Germany have a (slightly) different line-up. For now I'm not sure whether these instruments should be added a if they are added what the best position is because, if e.g. a Bugel is used in a concert band, is it certainly not doubling Clarinets. In this sense, the German (and Austrain?) bands are different from other Concert Bands.
In the current templates all "strange" instruments are added below the section where they most likely should be, e.g. Bugels and Flügelhorns appear at the bottom the Brass section.
For now the work around is simple, move these instruments manually to the required position. You will see a new,
Customizedscore order is created and is also stored in the score file.In reply to Same for brass bands and… by bmhm
For Brass Bands it's better to use the Brass Band template when creating a new score. This template contains a dedicated Brass Band score order.
However, all Euphoniums should be at the right location, whatever clef these use. This definite a bug.
Hi, I am talking about a wind orchestra.
Moving them around destroys brackets, therefore not a workaround as I had to maunally recreate LOTS of brackets.
Here is an example of the rundel distributor company: https://www.rundel.de/de/dialog_der_generationen/a-1/7871
Klick on "Lesen" on the right hand side to get a preview PDF.
It is like this:
Reeds (Saxes),
French Horns,
Trumpets,
Trombones,
Flügelhorns,
Tenor horns,
Euphonium,
Tuba
Euphonium, Tenorhorn and Bariton are interchangeable and common, but usually it is EITHER euphoniums OR Tenor + Bariton horns. In this case, we have a mix.
Here is a random example of Edition reift.ch publisher: https://www.reift.ch/books/The-Flying-Dutchman/11533?acat=466
After reeds (saxes):
Trumpets / Cornets,
Horns,
Trombones
Baritone (i.e. Euphonium)
Tuba
String Bass (forgot about that!!)
Here is a random example from Lindner und Sohn: https://www.lindner-music.de/blasorchester-noten/carmen-bizet-van-leeuw…
Reeds, then
Cornets,
Trumpets,
French Horns
Tenor Horns,
Trombones
Bariton/Euphonium
Basses (Tuba) and String Bass
Cornets == Flügelhorns in this case.
Another example: https://www.lindner-music.de/blasorchester-noten/die-fledermaus-selecti…
Reeds, then
Trumpets,
Horns,
Trombones,
Euph,
Tuba
I can provide partial scans of other scores if needed.
It might not be as simple a workaround as you'd like, but it is definitely possible.
Anyhow, flugelhorn is indeed a quite commonly used instrument in these genres - and even more so in jazz - enough so a place should be found for it in the ordering Whether it doubles clarinets or other woodwinds or not seems immaterial, I would expect it grouped with the brass, just below trumpets.
> flugelhorn is indeed a quite commonly used instrument in these genres - and even more so in jazz - enough so a place should be found for it in the ordering
Great! :)
> Whether it doubles clarinets or other woodwinds or not seems immaterial
Yes it is. Just an example where it is being used.
> I would expect it grouped with the brass, just below trumpets.
+1
> It might not be as simple a workaround as you'd like, but it is definitely possible.
A better workaround might be to modifiy the ordering.xml file. But I have no clue where to find it, as my flatpak app only shows
:/ordering.xmlas path. Can you kindly give me a hint?And while we are at it, can we also put the String Bass into the Brass section behind the Tubas for Concert Band? It is not uncommon to have a string bass there as well, although concert bands are usually wind orchestras (at least in parts of europe). Or maybe we need a "European wind orchestra" ordering? Your choice. I just wanted to mention it so we do not run into trouble later on.
The problem is, where should the Flügelhorn go? The examples (by the way thanks, I had no access to score using a Flügelhorn) are not conclusive.
E.g. Carmen (an old Dutch transcription (1954)) doesn't have a separate Flügelhorn part, it is just a Clarinet part. Same in Die Fledermaus. the Flügelhorn isn't separated instrument, it is doubling Trumpet 1. In The Flying Dutchman is no Flügelhorn at all.
Only in Dialog der Generationen I see the Flügelhorn as a separate part, between the Trombones and Tenor Horns but, as @Marc Sabatella said, a more logical place is below the Trumpets. However, in "Fanfare" orchestras, the Flügelhorns forms the base of the orchestra as a replacement of the Clarinets. Then the Flügelhorns are above the Trumpets.
As long there is no really defined order for the Flügelhorn, the best might be to add an "unsorted brass instruments" in the Brass section. In that case the Flügelhorn is part of the Brass section with the same bracketing. Moving it up or down will not destroy the bracketing (as long it stays within the section).
Please put it above or below the trumpets. Every conductor would expect a sorting from high to low.
If you are unsure, put them below trumpets and wait for feedback from other users and let's study more examples in the meantime.
WDYT?
In reply to Please put it above or below… by bmhm
According Samuel Adler's The Study of Orchestration is a member of the Cornet and Bugle family, so I think placement above the Trumpets is the best position for Concert Band, at least for now.
I can give you a "local" version of this adapted score order so you can get some experiences too. I can't make this file immediate since I have limit access to my computer right now (got a new one and am in the middle of an installation). And in the meantime, study some examples indeed, sound good to me.
A rather famous score published by Schott has the horns below the trombones. Puzzling, right?
In reply to According Samuel Adler's The… by njvdberg
Yes makes sense. Anyway, it doesn't matter too much: publishers will create their own ordering file if needed anyway. The idea here is just to provide sane defaults.
Just for completeness: German Wikipedia lists flugels after trumpets: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasorchester
And so does a document published by a German contest (federal music schools): https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bvbw-o…
If you live elsewhere, your milage may vary. And as stated, I'm happy as long as I can download the ordering somewhere and make my own, and the bugels get sorted in a reasonable way.
In reply to A rather famous score… by funnyflywheel
I have seen the Horn in F at several places. Although this is placement is new to me. It seems nobody has any idea what to do with these instruments :-)
Logically, grouping flugel with cornets makes sense of course. In the same way that putting horns up there too does I guess. If I were the one inventing standards, though, I'd have gone high-to-low and not cared about conical versus cylindrical bore :-)
I finally found the orders.xml: https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/blob/3.6/share/instruments/order…
Oddly, it is not to be found in the master branch. Why is that? If musescore doesn’t use the master branch, shouldn’t it update the default branch on github? 🤔
Anyway… Maybe I can patch it myself and file a PR. ~~I will add them after trumpets if you don’t mind (or have a good reason to add it elsewhere).~~
// EDIT: I will not add them after trumpets, see next comment
A good description how to organize ordering can be taken from programming styles: https://google.github.io/styleguide/javaguide.html#s3.4.2-ordering-clas…
> What is important is that each class uses some logical order, which its maintainer could explain if asked. For example, new methods are not just habitually added to the end of the class, as that would yield "chronological by date added" ordering, which is not a logical ordering.
That said, as long as we have a reference WHY we ordered the flugelhorns the way we do, it should be fine.
And publishers can download the orders.xml and make their own.
Problem solved (hopefully).
In reply to I finally found the orders… by bmhm
… I just saw cornets are ABOVE trumpets. I would put flugelhorns on top then, because cornets are somewhat in between trumpets and flugelhorns.
> Oddly, it is not to be found in the master branch. Why is that?
This feature is developed for 3.6 after the master branch was created. Once the 3.6 dust is settled, the PR's are moved to the master branch.
> And publishers can download the orders.xml and make their own.
As a matter of fact, everybody can make their own
orders.xmland use it by adding this file asScore order list 2on theScoretab of the Preferences (Edit -> Preferences).See https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/pull/7292
In reply to > Oddly, it is not to be… by njvdberg
… publishers are "more likely" to create their own…
> This feature is developed for 3.6 after the master branch was created. Once the 3.6 dust is settled, the PR's are moved to the master branch.
I did not know such branching approaches exist. I branched my PR off the 3.6 branch, I hope this is correct.
I was just a little confused as there is a release version and I do not find the included orders.xml in the master branch.
In reply to … I just saw cornets are… by bmhm
Cornets being above trumpets is actually traditional, as they used to play two separate roles (the cornet would often have the melody, but the trumpet would have bugle-like parts). See here for an example that also includes flugelhorns.
In reply to Cornets being above trumpets… by funnyflywheel
> See here for an example
Looks like what we used to call a "French line-up", haven't seen this for ages :-)
> See here for an example
In your example the Flugel horns are below trumpets. I added them above trumpets and cornets. Oh my…
In reply to > See here for an example In… by bmhm
As far as range is concerned, the range of the flugelhorns is below that of the trumpets/cornets.
The pull request has been merged.
Automatically closed -- issue fixed for 2 weeks with no activity.