How to create soundfonts that work with the new crescendo playback of MS 3.1.
I've tried beta release of MS 3.1 and I've noticed that crescendo playback works only with those soundfonts marked with "Expr."
What are the differences between creating a normal sf or a sf with "Expr"?
I'd like to create some brass soundfonts that work with crescendo playback because the existing sfs are not satisfying for me.
Thanks for your replies.
Comments
I asked this question in the forum but didn't get a reply yet.
I found it by trial and error method:
You don't need to do anything!
Just go to the "Synthesizer" window and make the changes shown in the picture on the "Dynamics" tab in the picture.
Any soundfont works with these settings.
In reply to I asked this question in the… by Ziya Mete Demircan
Great!
In reply to I asked this question in the… by Ziya Mete Demircan
Thank you! That's great!
In reply to I asked this question in the… by Ziya Mete Demircan
I tried this, and it didn't work quite consistently. When it did actually work (with the most recent beta), the soundfont didn't seem to actually use different samples for lower volumes- it would just make it quieter and quieter, making quiet dynamics nearly impossible to hear.
On a second attempt, it didn't work at all- nothing changed.
It's particularly bad with, say, a piano concerto- the orchestra is fine, but the piano is just awful.
In reply to I tried this, and it didn't… by LuuBluum
After making the settings as in the picture:
You must also click the "Set as default" and "Save to Score" buttons.
And now I've retested with 3.1-Beta2; It works.
In reply to After making the settings as… by Ziya Mete Demircan
I don't think this video solves the problem Ispil mentioned, here you are using a consistent-sounding instrument while the problematic cases are piano/timpani/... which have very different timbre along the way from ppp to fff. Since you changed to "non-expressive" the timbre sounds in ppp are exactly the same as in fff, so even though the instrument is playing in a very quiet dynamics it still produces harsh/shrill sound, which is really bad for the ear.
In reply to I asked this question in the… by Ziya Mete Demircan
I'd really like to know exactly what it is that they did to the musescore HQ soundfont that made it work well with whatever code they've added for single note dynamics. With the soundfont I use (a version of GeneralUserGS with instruments added by me) it seems like it sets the velocities to something loud and it makes quiet passages sound really off sometimes. I'd just like to see all these excellent soundfonts that are out there be able to take advantage of this new feature
In reply to I'd really like to know… by Ajlewis3008
It is absolutely unhealthy to make all other fonts useless (by default) , inventing a nonsensical and nonfitting procedure, instead of using a simple and standard CC#11.
CC#7 and CC#11 combination is a standard system existing since 1996 and works even with the most primitive soundfonts.
cites from: Complete MIDI v0.1, Detailed Specification (1996); The MIDI Manufacturers Association, Los Angeles, CA
cite...
"Findings: Note surprisingly, all hardware respondents said that their devices were continuous. There were two cases in their hands. The recommended volume of CC#7 (volume) and CC#11 (expression) was used by MIDI. Roland uses the same response curve, and other Japanese manufacturers.
Of the 20 software respondents, all used CC#7 and 11 use CC#11. The largest number of software respondents (6) said they used CC#7 for dynamic expression during music playback. In 2 other cases, CC # 11 was set to a preset level and kept there."
...cite end here.
It is not a good idea to use CC#02 breathing control from the beginning. Because procedure is different (used like: velocity > aftertouch).
cite...
"Devices such as wind controllers can send Aftertouch from increasing breath pressure after the initial attack. The type of tone modification created by the Aftertouch is determined by the receiver. Aftertouch may be assigned to affect volume, timbre, vibrato, etc."
...cite (opere citato)
Strange inventions (such as: "Constant velocity; Use CC#02 (or CC#11) for dynamics") just create problems.
See what the MIDI spec says:
cite ...
Volume, Expression & Master Volume Response
Volume (CC # 7) and Expression (CC # 11) should be implemented as follows:
CC#7 is used (CC#11 is assumed #127 which):
L (dB) = 40 log (V / 127) // where V = CC # 7 value
For situations in which controllers are used:
L (dB) = 40 log (V / 127 ^ 2) // where V = (volume x expression)
... cite (op. cit.)
A clearer formulation:
L (dB) = 40 log ((V * E) / (127 ^ 2)) // where V = volume and E = expression
If you eliminate the "40log" portion of this formula, the code for velocity and expression remains in your hand. ((V*E) / (127 ^ 2))
And the response of the software and keyboards/sound-modules should also be adjusted and measured.
cite...
...cite (op. cit.)
1996-2019 🤦♂️🤷♂️
It's a long message, and I know most of you aren't interested in that.
I keep writing it in vain; I'm sorry.
In reply to It is absolutely stupid and… by Ziya Mete Demircan
We had to use a controller number that didn't already have a default behavior in MuseScore's synths to ensure that instruments not supporting the expressive method would "fall back" to velocity-only control.
MuseScore's "single note dynamics" (SND) sends both velocity and CC2 events simultaneously for maximum control of instrument expression. In supported instruments, CC2 controls note volume and tone while velocity controls note attack characteristics. If we had used CC11, user-added SoundFont instruments would end up with double the sound attenuation at low dynamics due to both velocity and CC11 compounding attenuation. By mapping to CC2 instead, normal SoundFont instruments will simply ignore the CC2 commands and fall back to velocity-only input.
It was my intention that this would be configurable for each SoundFont/SFZ/external MIDI source, but that is not how it got implemented, which unfortunately can make it frustrating to use SND with varied sound sources.
In reply to I asked this question in the… by Ziya Mete Demircan
thank you so much!
In reply to I asked this question in the… by Ziya Mete Demircan
You are a life saver!!!!
It is not the best idea to switch to CC11, if I'm not mistaken, it has worse quality. And since it's a global setup, all the Sound Fonts (SF2, SF3) and SFZ files will be switched to CC11 in your music. The best thing is to add support to Single Note Dynamics (SND) into your Sound Fonts and SFZ files.
I still didn't manage to add this support to SoundFonts, the only person I know that can for sure help us on that is S. Christian Collins.
For SFZ files, it's a simple process. Just add the following lines to each sample in the SFZ file you want to get the SND. I.e. for each sustain sample:
volume=-40
amp_veltrack=0
gain_cc2=40
And if there are lines called
hivel
andlovel
, set hivel to 127 and lovel to 0 so that they are triggered independently of the velocity.In general, I use a velocity cross setup. That is, I use a p or mp sustain sample (more muffle) with volume = -15 and gain_cc2 = 15 and an ff or fff sample (brighter) with volume = -40 and gain_cc2 = 40. So, not only the volume changes, but it gets a bit brighter, which is way more realistic. And I keep some attack samples alongside, which have the standard velocity setup without gain cc2.
In reply to It is not the best idea to… by Ludwig van Benteuer
If you want to use any soundfont beside those created especially for use with CC2, you have to change to CC11 to get single note dynamics. The choice is to use only sound fonts with CC2 support or use CC11.
In reply to It is not the best idea to… by Ludwig van Benteuer
the only person I know that can for sure help us on that is S. Christian Collins.
Funny inside knowledge; that is the exact person who's been working with James during the implementation of SND into MuseScore and where the CC2 and CC11 methods come from...
In reply to It is not the best idea to… by Ludwig van Benteuer
I tried this and now the instruments don't make any sound. Luckily I make backups in case things like this happen. Maybe it's because I'm trying to get this to work on MuseScore and apparently Zerberus is missing opcodes necessary for control dynamics for either cc2 or cc11.
In reply to I tried this and now the… by Mewsscore
Yes, as far as I know, Zerberus doesn't support dynamic expression yet.
In reply to It is not the best idea to… by Ludwig van Benteuer
didn't mean to add on to this comment thread, but I am trying to experiment with Polyphone rn.
Here is the simple way to make your own SoundFonts work with MuseScore's default expressive mode:
The first modulator disables the default velocity-to-attenuation curve (notice the text saying "disabling default mod."). The second modulator recreates that curve with MIDI controller #2 as the source.
I used a more complicated variation of this technique in MuseScore General that uses a different attenuation scale and allows CC2 to affect the filter as well. In the strings, I even use CC2 to crossfade between the forte and piano samples for a more natural change in tone across the dynamic range.
In reply to Here is the simple way to… by s.chriscollins
Can I get this to work with sfz files? I tried, but for some reason the instruments won't make any sound afterwards. Should I just use sf2 instead?
EDIT: Nvm, I think I'm understanding what I need to do. Might create a python script to make the text input go faster.
In reply to Can I get this to work with… by Mewsscore
This is definitely possible in the SFZ format, but if I recall, Zerberus (MuseScore's SFZ player) is missing support for the opcodes necessary to make MIDI CC #2 or #11 control dynamics.
In reply to Here is the simple way to… by s.chriscollins
Brilliante! You made my day... It's exhilarating to see the soundfont I use having single note dynamics :D
In reply to Here is the simple way to… by s.chriscollins
Also, you can copy and paste modulators. This really speeds up the process.
In reply to Here is the simple way to… by s.chriscollins
I did this, and it doesn't work, any tips?
In reply to I did this, and it doesn't… by -palindrome-
You edited your soudnfont to add the controllers as per https://musescore.org/en/node/287965#comment-951785? It should have worked, but if not, then in order for anyone to say for sure why not, you'd need to upload your soundfont somewhere and post a link here.
In reply to Here is the simple way to… by s.chriscollins
Hello, i have a question, say i have "instruments" for soft, med, and loud dynamics for a trombone for example.
What can i do on Polyphone so it crossfades between each instrument in the preset at specific velocity marks (for exemple, soft plays between 0-64, then crossfades to med, then crossfades to loud at 96) when using SND ?
In reply to Hello, i have a question,… by Reloup
There is no parameter for crossfade transition in Soundfont. You can only set in which velocity regions each of the three samples will play (for example: for p-samples: 0-63, for mf-samples: 64-99, for f-samples: 100-127 ).
In reply to There is no parameter for… by Ziya Mete Demircan
Yes it's what i did already and it works for separate notes, but i'd like to be able to do dynamics on a single note, like crescendos and stuff.
S. Christian Collins said he was able to do this with string samples, i tried to reverse engeneer this from the musescore HD soundfont, but it does not works well with single instruments as it creates a chorus effect among other problems...
In reply to Yes it's what i did already… by Reloup
Yes, there are, of course, those who are trying to crossfade on the sf2 (maybe even those who succeeded).
But it takes a lot of effort to spread something that is not in the specification, and you have no guarantee that you can be 100 percent successful.
The Chorus effect consists of the poor tuning of the samples that overlap. Make sure that the tunings of the two overlapping samples match exactly.
In reply to Yes, there are, of course,… by Ziya Mete Demircan
Thank you for your input. Is there an alternative to sf2 that would allow me to do that ? i've heard good stuff about sfz but it's kind of a mess to organize and to edit compared to soundfonts, especially with musescore where i need to load each instruments one after the other...
In reply to Thank you for your input. Is… by Reloup
Yes, Unfortunately, the best option now is sf2. We have no other choice but to settle for the best with the restrictions it brings.
In reply to Here is the simple way to… by s.chriscollins
Hey there. I experimented with this a bit for a few days. My instruments become extremely quiet after I apply these modulators, so I'm wondering whether I need to increase the multiplier on CC2 or remove Modulator 1 to get it to work better.
In reply to Hey there. I experimented… by JNB Transcribes
You could try setting the CC2 modulator amount to a smaller value. I often use 800 or 700 for the instruments used in the MuseScore GM, which means the piano dynamic levels aren't so extremely quiet compared to forte. The modulator amount works like this:
In reply to You could try setting the… by s.chriscollins
Thanks. That did the trick. Finally. Euphoniums, saxes, and horns that sound more realistic.
I guess now the trick is trying to tweak my edited soundfonts to match the attenuation of the MuseScore ones. Experimenting with that rn.
EDIT: Found the .sf3 soundfont for MuseScore. Copied the expressive modulators to a euphonium sound, and it worked wonders.
In reply to Here is the simple way to… by s.chriscollins
Here's a sample of what MuseScore's expression modulators look like in Polyphone.
In reply to Here's a sample of what… by JNB Transcribes
Well, what I've done in MuseScore GM varies from instrument to instrument. Generally, with expressive instruments, it's not just volume, but also tone that varies with dynamics. I'm not sure which instrument this screenshot is taken from, but you can see CC2 affecting attenuation and filter. It's also important, as I've mentioned before, that you properly cancel at the instrument level any default modulators you no longer want active (e.g. note-on-velocity to attenuation). In the MuseScore GM instruments, some of the modulators are set at the instrument level and some at the preset level, but the default modulators must always be canceled or overridden at the instrument level.
In reply to Well, what I've done in… by s.chriscollins
I was actually wondering a bit about that. How would one go about "disabling default mod"? I tried left clicking on a modulator to see if a menu or something would pop up, but I haven't seen the option anywhere so far.
In reply to I was actually wondering a… by JNB Transcribes
In Polyphone, with an instrument (not preset) selected, click the toolbox icon and choose "Override a default modulator..."
In reply to In Polyphone, with an… by s.chriscollins
That does the trick. Thanks.
I do find going between testing soundfonts in MuseScore and tweaking them seperately in PolyPhone getting a bit tedious, but I'm confident it will benefit my scores in the long run. I wonder if there are any specific controls in PolyPhone that would allow for testing MuseScore's expression parameters.
In reply to That does the trick. Thanks… by JNB Transcribes
If you have a MIDI keyboard with a mod wheel or expression pedal, you should be able to map it to CC2 and use that to test the expression in Polyphone.
Here is my GM compatible soundfont collection. However, they are not compatible with SND. I love the brass sounds in this collection, but changing dynamics sound too drastic sometimes. I would love if someone could help me with one or two presets and tell me how to apply those preset changes to the other presets.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e7IN_TXZCYEv44VBC-bkxqyjUe3mkcmW/view?…
EDIT: For some reason, only decrescendos (not crescendos) work for the SND Test musescore file using my soundfont. I don't know how that could be. Also, the decrescendos only work when I have CC 11 selected as per the OP