Using repeats and jumps for a usual song impossible?
The target is to have a
refrain
strophe
coda
each noted only once but get an entire song using repeats etc. looking like this when played:
Refrain
2 Strophes
Refrain
2 Strophes
Refrain
Coda
I can't achieve the target, neither with nor without "D.C." (see files). Is there a way to do that?
I created a song with a more complex structure than this example, therefore I need the methodolody, not only a solution for this simple example. The problem is, that "D.C." has more function than only to jump to the beginning (and the "D.S." is already in use at my song). A "D.C." that only jumps and makes no problems with repeats would be great.
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Voltas_Test_1.mscz | 10.44 KB |
| Voltas_Test_2.mscz | 9.98 KB |
Comments
On the D.C and the D.C al Code use the 'Play repeats' property
In reply to On the D.C and the D.C al… by Jojo-Schmitz
I see tat selecting "play repeats" on the D.C will play all four verses. But it adds a 5th verse before moving to the 4th ending.
The OP might need to restructure this to make it work. Partially because a piece with so many jumps is hard to maneuver if there are very many page turns. I might suggest refrain, v1, repeat for v2. Then a new section of refrain , v3, repeat for v4. refrain to ending. easier to follow, I think.
Okay, for...
Refrain
2 Strophes
Refrain
2 Strophes
Refrain
Coda
You mention 2 Stropes followed by Refrain. Is the first of the 2 Stropes identical to the second, or are there alternate Strope endings?
![Diff_endings.png]( "Diff_endings.png")
So, something like this?
Voltas_Test_3.mscz
In reply to Okay, for... Refrain 2… by Jm6stringer
This may be what the OP wants.
I had seen this in the manual-"Continue at: Playback jumps to the next marker whose "Label" is the same as the "Continue" tag." I have almost no idea what it means. This section of the manual needs examples, I think.
In reply to This may be what the OP… by bobjp
You wrote:
I had seen this in the manual... I have almost no idea what it means.
Using the 'D.C. al Coda' jump for example...
Play until:
plays to a marker (the "To coda symbol") whose marker's 'Label" is the same as "Play until" (here "coda").
Continue at:
![Jumps_markers.png]( "Jumps_markers.png")
jumps to the next marker (namely, the coda symbol) whose "Label" (codab) is the same as "Continue at".
In reply to I had seen this in the… by Jm6stringer
jm6stringer,
Thanks for taking the time to explain this. I have a music ed degree from the early 70's. I never heard the term "volta" until I joined this forum a few years ago ( Yes I know. People seem amazed by this.). We learned of the inherent dangers of nesting repeats and codas within each other. Sure, we now can make a computer deal with complicated structures, but humans might be a different problem. If this piece is 10 or more pages long, you can just imagine problems turning several pages at once, back and forth, trying to find the right spot.
The reason I am in this thread is because when I see a topic on something I might not be familiar with, I try it to see if I can learn something about MuseScore. I know how repeats and codas work. I learned about them at a time when we were only concerned about live musicians. There were times to use repeats and codas, and times not to. For the sake of readability. This is my background. Your excellent explanation still leaves me with questions. But that's OK because I would never use a complicated process like the one the OP wants to use. But I still learned a few things. So thanks.
In reply to Okay, for... Refrain 2… by Jm6stringer
To be on the safe side, you need a very short fake measure for the 2nd jump. Because both jumps are not identical and MuseScore doesn't guarantee jump order for multiple jumps attached to the same location.
In reply to To be on the safe side, you… by jeetee
Here's a pure normal volta and repeat approach
In reply to Here's a pure normal volta… by jeetee
And a combined one where the jump was added for human clarity (which could be enough as an addendum to the previous version above); but as a consistency/study I've also made the play count adjustments needed to make the jump itself functional as well.
In reply to And a combined one where the… by jeetee
The musician would already jump "D.C. al Coda" after strophe 2, but should do first "D.C.con.rep.".
In reply to The musician would already… by hexaeder
Depends on the musician; there is plenty music out there with multiple verses but without a visible and repeat barline, because the verse numbers and/or voltas make the flow clear for them.
But if you so wish, you can still double-click the D.C. al Coda and modify it's text to read something such as:
1st time D.C. con Rep2nd time D.C. al Coda
In reply to Here's a pure normal volta… by jeetee
Thank you. There are some new ideas.
This works, but the musician does not know what to do after strophe 2 (D.C. missing) and strophe 3 (D.C. al Coda missing).
In reply to To be on the safe side, you… by jeetee
Thank you. :)
This works. There's the question left, if the multiple jump order is clear for software (not so important as you can see, the wished order is possible) and musician (is there a musically rule for multiple jumps at the same place, f.e. from top to down? - but I think that's intuitive).
In reply to Okay, for... Refrain 2… by Jm6stringer
Thank you. That's fine for the simple example, but I have yet some problems with my song. Here's the original song order with to two simplified examples.
each refrain, strophe, coda, ending starts with upbeat and there's singing.
2x refrain (the repeat has to be added later to the simplified examples)
1. strophe
refrain
2. strophe
refrain
[3. strophe (I removed 3. + 4. strophe and corresponding refrains at the simplified examples)
refrain
4. strophe
refrain]
5. strophe
6. strophe
refrain
coda
refrain
ending
In reply to Thank you. That's fine for… by hexaeder
Now you want: "strophe melodies are equal and end equal". Okay, so no alternate strophe endings.
![Note.png]( "Note.png")
Also, this note does not appear in all examples:
Is it a pickup for the "Ending"?
.
Additionally, why this confusion?
![measure.png]( "measure.png")
"should never be played" Whaaat???
My suggestion...
Instead of submitting confusing alternate versions of what doesn't work, please write a single instance of each of these sections:
refrain
strophe
coda
ending
Place each one on a completely separate staff.
Include any beginning pickups (upbeats, as you say) in front of the section to which they belong.
Simply enter those 4 lines of music and then explain the order in which you want them played.
In reply to Now you want: "strophe… by Jm6stringer
Yes, upbeat means pickup and this one is for the ending.
"Should never be played" is what it is named: If this part is played, then the jumps didn't work correct. It's only for testing the play order.
In reply to Thank you. That's fine for… by hexaeder
This follows the roadmap as now given:
R, R, S1, R, S2, R, S3, R, S4, R, S5, S6, R, Bridge(which you called Coda), R, Coda (which you called ending)
The only trick required is either of:
A.) A short measure at the end of the Strophes to be able to differentiate between the first Jump (a D.S. from 5 to 6) and the last jump (D.C. al Bridge)
B.) A volta over the refrain to prevent it from being played between 5 and 6, another one over the Strophes to prevent them playing after strophe6. This also requires you to repeat (hidden) tempo markings as they are covered by the voltas too.
In reply to This follows the roadmap as… by jeetee
Thank you, great!
A.)
This enables to use as many different jumps as I wish by choosing a name and write it clear for the musician! .
I don't understand, why the software plays the refrain only the first time twice respectively what would you have to change that the refrain would be played twice each time.
In reply to Thank you, great! A.) This… by hexaeder
To have it play twice each time you won't be able to hack it with just A (you'll need to replace the end repeat of the strophe with multiple "D.C. con rep" jumps.)
It only plays it twice the first time because after the 2nd repeat that barline is "used up". Just note that because you now have a no-volta multiple end-repeat structure humans can be confused about this; which is why I added the text note to there as well.
In reply to This follows the roadmap as… by jeetee
A.) I can add a rest and make it invisible and small, but it seems you added multiple rests at the same place that aren't played and you connected a "D.C. al Bridge" to the rest, what I can only connect to a measure, not to a note or rest. How can I do these things respectively what are the keywords or topics I have to look up?
In reply to A.) I can add a break and… by hexaeder
> "[…] but it seems you added multiple breaks at the same place that aren't played […]"
I did not. There is only one rest there (please stop using the word "break" for this symbol, a break is a different thing in English music terminology) and that rest is played. This is why it has to be so short, so you'd not notice it being played.
> "[…] and you connected a "D.C. al Bridge" to the break, what I can only connect to a measure, not to a note or break.[…]"
The jump is not attached to the rest at all, but to the measure; You can only attach a Jump to a measure!
> "How can I do these things respectively what are the keywords or topics I have to look up?"
To make such a short measure you access the measure properties (https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/measure-operations#properties), in which you:
Layout stretchvalue to 0To turn the end barline of that measure invisible: click on it to select it and either press V or uncheck "Visible" in the Inspector (F8)
To make the fake measure not take up any space (overlap it with the one before):
For easier inspection/modification, find the same score attached, but this time I've not set a negative width on the horizontal frame yet.
JUST FOR FUN:
When I was having trouble with a complex repeats & jumps scenario, jm6stringer sent me this short, delightful example. It will make your head spin :-)
Download the attachment and play it in MuseScore.
In reply to JUST FOR FUN: When I was… by dddiam
ROTFL... ;-)
https://musescore.org/en/node/327154#comment-1107368
In reply to https://musescore.org/en… by Jm6stringer
Thank you jm6stringer. I had just found where you had given it to me, and I was about to revise the credits to acknowledge you.
"Crazy Happy Birthday" is a great, delightful piece of work! I love it. You should upload it to MuseScore.com.
That link that you provided to my original posting is also a good thread about using repeats and jumps to play a sequence of themes A B B C B B A B B.
In reply to Thank you jm6stringer. I… by dddiam
P.S., Nice Irish music arrangement, jm6stringer. I just gave your "Raggle Taggle Gypsies" five stars.
In reply to P.S., Nice Irish music… by dddiam
What? Where?
In reply to What? Where? by Jm6stringer
You are right. It is not by you.
But when I type "jm6stringer" into the "Search for sheet music" text box, it takes me to
https://musescore.com/sheetmusic?text=jm6stringer
I do not see a comment by you on the piece, so I do not know what MuseScore is matching on.
???
MuseScore search results sometimes confound me,
In reply to You are right. It is not by… by dddiam
Aha!
Thanks for the info.
Apparently, I've helped the uploaders with some MuseScore issues in the help forum and they acknowledged me in their score descriptions. Thoughtful folk they are.
FWIW...
Regarding that nice Irish music arrangement of "Raggle Taggle Gypsies": Here's a better version by the same person:
https://musescore.com/leon_arundell/scores/2034126
The drums get very interesting after the first few pages.
(This one is closer to a 5-star version than the other one... :-)