Save button in MuseScore 4

• Dec 18, 2022 - 06:06

Just installed the update to MuseScore 4, looking everything over. Am I just blind or was the save button for the toolbar taken out of this version?
It's not impossible I'm just overlooking it, I didn't notice where the undo button got moved to right away, but I can't for the life of me find the save button. I see save under file>save, and I know there's an auto save, but out of habit and expediency, with a dash of caution i like having a button to give a quick hit when I'm thinking about it and have the peace of mind my work is saved, without giving the action too much conscious thought.

Comments

• Dec 20, 2022 - 02:24

Why in the world would anyone take that out? It's one of the most common features found in a program where the work needs to be saved; and presumably well used - especially by anyone who wants to know they have actually saved their work.
Sure, I've had my butt saved by an autosave, but I've also had my share of times where those systems fail; and I'd rather be able to simply know the work won't be lost.

And the irony that the submit button for this forum actually says "Save" isn't lost on me either...

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• Dec 20, 2022 - 10:56

I've got a bunch of programs that don't have a save toolbar icon by default. Word and SketchUp for example. I also have a plethora of programs that do have that icon, but hardly ever use it.

Yes, the save function is used a lot; but that is still there. It lives both in the File menu (as in every other program) and has the universal default shortcut (Ctrl/Cmd+S) pre-assigned to it.

But as stated before, it would be nice to at least have the option to add it back in by customization for those users that miss it. As such I've opened a feature request/task for it: https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/15426

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• Dec 22, 2022 - 07:46

Yes, this is a product of the 90s. But. Why not leave this to the user? I personally miss it a lot. It's annoying that it can't be displayed. OK. By default, it should not be there, but it should be possible to display it. This will make the program user-friendly. Thank's!

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• Jul 28, 2023 - 02:16

I think Tantacrul has made a huge mistake. Maybe some people don't like it, maybe it is not the default, but please, let those who love it or need it badly be able to customize what is an awful toolbar with lots of wasted space which could be filled with useful tools. One expects each new version of a program to include new features, not dismiss useful ones. Particularly one expects more flexibility, a better user interface.

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• Jul 28, 2023 - 18:03

FWIW, I agree there is no good reason not to make the button available as an option, and hope to see that return, although I do agree it shouldn't be there by default - reducing clutter is one of the big improvements in the interface in MU4, and putting that there by default this would be a step backwards.

But anyhow, it's important to note that tons of new features are included, and the save feature definitely is not dismissed. And in general, there is more flexibility (quite a few things are customizable now that weren't before, and it's easier to discover how), and in general the user interface is better, as measured by actual usability tests with live subjects. So the designers definitely share all these same goals, even if there exists one particular button you happen to disagree with them about.

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• Jul 29, 2023 - 09:02

What you call clutter I call visibility and accessibility. Unfortunately people have a tendency to believe their choices are the best ones, or even the only admissible ones, when the truth is that there are as many approaches to a work flow as there are people. And they all deserve respect.
By the way I didn't claim the save function has been dismissed, I claim the corresponding button in the tool bar has been dismissed.
But let's analyze the reasons for having done so. In Tantacrul's words, "I'm sorry but a dedicated save button is going to have to stay in the 90's where it belongs." Instead, there is a 90's save button buried in the File menu, which, to make things worse, takes nearly 1 s to open (in an i7 laptop with recently installed W10 and Linux Mint 22). So two clicks and a nasty dead time just to save your work! The alternative is to use Ctrl+s, a hangover of the 80's (which by the way requires pressing two keys simultaneously--quite accessible). I know there are people that prefer the mouse and people that prefer keyboard shortcuts, and it is OK, vive la différence!. Seemingly Tantacrul isn't willing to acknowledge that.
But anyway, what kind of logic is it to reject something that worked perfectly well just because it was introduced in the 90's? Or is he referring to the floppy skeuomorph? Because if this is the reason, please change the icon if you want, but for goodness sake, keep the save button visible! (However it wouldn't be wise to change the icon, as it wouldn't be to try to change the QWERTY keyboard, a hangover of the 1870's! They attempted that in the first cell phones with a keyboard, it didn't work)
What is left in the tool bar? Huge desert areas with quite uneven distribution, transport buttons at the right, (which is contrary to the customary position in most programs, oh, sorry, I'd forgotten that it's a 90's costume...) and the undo-redo buttons at the extreme right, so when one inputs a mistaken symbol one has to either go with the mouse pointer aaaaall the way to the right to undo, or use Ctrl+z (an 80's solution). And on the centre of the scene... ta-daaaa!!!! the parts and mixer buttons, functions that are used soooooooooo frequently... Seriously, how many times per day you adjust the mixer controls? How many times per day you generate parts? To be sure, compared to the hundreds of times most people save their work!
Please take note that I'm not criticizing the huge improvements in so many aspects that MS4 has introduced, but I don't think they need to come with the toll of reduced accessibility.

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• Jul 29, 2023 - 14:09

As I said, I personally agree it's harmless to allow people the option of adding this button. I am simply taking issue with your broad statements about how updates should add more features, more flexibility, better user interface usability, etc. Again, MuseScore 4 does do these things, and it's just plain offensive to those who worked hard on this to suggest otherwise. By making such statements, it's hard to even start discussing any actual technical merits to whatever else you might have written in the post.

So if you have something you want to say about the save button, best to keep it to that, without the sarcasm that makes it difficult to discuss whatever technical merits there might be in what you are trying to express. But, since I already agree it's harmless to reintroduce this even if I personally would rarely if ever use that button, it's not me you'd need to convince.

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• Jul 29, 2023 - 20:21

May I ask you to recall that Tantacrul was way more sarcastic in his famous diatribe? And that his phrase "a dedicated save button is going to have to stay in the 90's where it belongs" is rudely disrespectful for all of us who prefer the save button?
But what worries me more is that you consider it just "harmless" to allow the option of customizing the tool bar (I mean really customizing it), a feature that share many if not most applications. It is not just "harmless", it is badly needed.
You are right in that there would be a better way: to issue a feature request, but that has been already done and Tantacrul closed the debate with the 90's argument! So what is left is that more people in the community raise their voices.

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• Jul 29, 2023 - 21:34

Don't forget, according to some (https://musescore.org/en/node/340686#comment-1197458) only one or two people actually want a dedicated Save button... 🙄
But it's no use arguing with the people who don't seem to get it. It's all about the "whataboutism" - "You're talking about something we took away? But what about all the stuff we added?"
And? So? Thus? Therefore? One thing doesn't correlate to the other. We're talking about the Save button; and to a broad degree the concept that if you're offering flexibility and customization to users, that should extend to giving them the discretion whether to use or remove a commonly used existing feature from their personal workspace configuration; rather than making the call for everyone.
Instead, one user - and it's always the same user - has to turn everything around, so they can to faux offense; and turn a reasonable observation into an ungrateful rebuke of all the new features and the hard work gone into it; which is a false equivalency. And they'll probably also take offense at point that out...

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• Jul 29, 2023 - 22:01

Agreed.
By the way, I am grateful for all the new features (removing an existing useful feature could hardly be called a new feature) and not only I expressed it clearly in this conversation, but several other times over the years. But my gratitude will never be at the price of shutting my mouth when I see things that don't seem right.

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• Jul 30, 2023 - 14:35

I will readily admit it's more than one or two users, but I think you should also agree it's still a fairly small number (probably less than a dozen that have raised it).

Also, there is no "false equivalency" here, and I am not turning anything around. It was not the requests for this feature that I took issue with. It was the unrelated and untrue implications about the absence of other improvements. I am not the one who brought up the subject; I( merely responded to it.

Anyhow, bottom line: it is always inappropriate to resort to personal attacks, and it is also unproductive to do so when you could instead be making reasoned arguments that invite discussion rather than it shut down. We always have the choice of how to proceed, and I am asking we might all try to make the right one here.

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 00:50

Marc, this is a bit personal, but public at the same time. I've never attacked you, I have a deep respect for you, even if sometimes I may disagree with some of your points of view, and I have acknowledged this in the past. When this disagreement exists, I don't doubt to express it, trying to use as far as possible rational rather than emotional arguments. Discussing things with you is always edifying since most of the time when you try to rebut others' arguments you provide thoughtful insights and never close a discussion just because. I also greatly appreciate your devotion to help others with their problems, giving a solution or a tip, and the huge amount of time you spend on it. So I don't think I have personally attacked you, If you feel I did, I apologize.

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 02:29

Marc, Now I wish to reply to specific details in your post. First, I don't think the percent of people that miss the feature we are discussing (a readily visible and accessible save button) is adequately measured by the number of participants of this thread who express so. Saying that the number is fairly small without a proof is just begging the question.
Second, I don't think anybody has denied the other improvements, on the contrary, most of us agree that it is a superb program, so we feel it is a pity that previously existing useful features are removed (to be sure, not the possibility to save, without which the program would be useless, but saving with a single click). Complaining against a regression is not the same as denying or minimizing the improvements. What would you think, for instance, if saving using Ctrl+S were removed under the argument that it belongs to the 80's?
It is also true that sometimes a seemingly small inconvenience prevents reaching the point where one could appreciate the improvements.
I agree that we should always attempt a peaceful discussion. But Tantacrul's way of closing the debate, when he was in charge, was rude and offensive. Not everybody is prepared to endure that.

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 14:32

As I said, I can't speak for anyone else, and I agree the statement you refer to was uncalled for. And given the chance, my guess is he would acknowledge that he could have approached that better. Still, we don't progress by exacerbating the situation - we progress by moving beyond it.

It's obviously true that the number of people who post about an issue isn't the total count of people affected. But still, one can get a sense of relative severity of different issues. Compared to, say, the number of people concerned that the range of various instruments in Muse Sounds is too restricted at the high end, it's no contest, - easily ten times as many people are posting about that. So this type of data is still very useful in determining priorities.

Anyhow, you might not have explicitly denied the improvements, but hopefully you can see that the statement to which I was referring did carry a strong and sarcastically worded implication that there were none. So, in the future, when moving the discussion forward, I'm simply advising you to refrain from statements like that, as they won't help your cause.

As for Ctrl+S, it's certainly possible that someday that standards for accessibility and UI design will change over time. But for now, at least, that's the method that is universally used and specifically called for in virtually every document on the subject from operating system and standards organization. There's a huge difference between something that is actually universal across applications and required by standards, vs a particular UI element that is actually quite uncommon.

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• Jul 30, 2023 - 14:26

I cannot speak for others, so I'll let Tantacrul address his own statements. I disagree that they were "way more sarcastic:" - a single off-the-cuff comment is different from a paragraphs-long rant - but still, I do agree his statement was uncalled-for. And I have also given him constructive criticism about respectful dialogue. For that matter, I have benefitted from similar constructive criticism directed at me at times over the years. It's a lesson we all can continue to learn.

So in the spirit of moving forward, I would also make a few more observations:

1) One of the effects of sarcasm is that it tends to shut down disucssion. But that was actually his goal in that thread - to make a definitive statement and end debate. So while inappropriate, it was definitely more effective in achieving his intended purpose. Your purpose, however, is different - you want to change the status quo - and thus you will need different tactics. If we want to get things done, it pays to find ways of not escalating things.

2) Tantacrul is no longer the person in charge of the design. None of us know the feelings of the new product owner on this topic. But I do suspect that raising the topic respectfully without the emotional baggage of previous discussions is definitely more likely to lead to a positive response.

3) FWIW, I happen to know from face-to-face conversation that there could be room for further discussion on this. Minds can be changed. I am hoping people don't shut down the opportunity.

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 02:44

A note regarding Tantacrul´s sarcasm: I was referring to a video he published several years ago when he was not in charge (sorry, I didn't know hi wasn't any longer in charge), in which he ridiculed the user interface, for instance things such as the consistency of the icons, the alignment of certain lines of one icon to the next and so on. This was highly sarcastic. Without being part of the team, I empathized with them and felt badly. However, I'm just criticizing his attitude, his way of communicating things, but definitely I take my hat off to him for being such a hard worker and for his success in taking several steps further what was already an outstanding FOSS application.

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• Dec 22, 2022 - 11:16

I discovered that in Musescore 4 not only the save-button has disappeared, the complete toolbar with "file operations" isn't there anymore...............
In my opinion that's very strange. In nearly every program there are buttons to open, save, print, create.
Why not bring back these usefull buttons in Musescore 4?????????

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• Dec 22, 2022 - 11:53

Why didn't the creators of the program leave it up to the users to decide what they wanted to display? For example: if someone requires the save button, you should be able to display it.

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• Jan 5, 2023 - 04:59

I note that the menu still has the file-operation toolbar icons next to it, which should only be there if the toolbar alternates actually exist. Doesn't this Tantamounttocruelty person understand consistency, or does it only apply to things that he personally has noticed?

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• Jan 5, 2023 - 05:42

Wait. What my copy has is a menu bar that looks like MS3. The functions you miss from the tool bar have been moved to Edit. It's called consolidation. It helps unclutter the work space. This is just like major professional software. Word and Sibelius to name only two. It is extremely consistent. Just not what you are used to. So the buttons are in a different place. MS3 seems backwards to me in some of these respects. But I just went with it.

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• Jan 5, 2023 - 06:07

I don't know what version of Word you're using, but my 2022 copy still has a Save button, along with a full and robust toolbar with buttons for a wide array of features, subdivided into sections you can scroll through; instead of using the old File|Edit|Format drop down menus.
Seriously, come to think of it, the drop down menu is WAY older than the Save icon. I used to use that as a kid running programs off MS Dos in the 80s...
🤔🤨

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• Jan 5, 2023 - 20:45

Screenshots attached.
And honestly, I hadn't really thought about it much until now, but in a discussion of keeping up with the times or whatever and workflow simplicity, the MS suite toolbar ribbon or whatever you want to call it is arguably the model that should be followed. You can seamlessly scroll through the different sections and quickly find the options you want to utilize with the click of a button. Falling back on the File menu system, which seems to be the predominant suggestion for basic functions like saving is arguably going backwards; because again, the drop down menu system the file toolbar is based on goes back DECADES, and is comparatively more antiquated than the Save button.
There's also something to be said about a customizable workspace. Don't drop a feature just because "you" don't *think other people are going to use it. If it's a common feature, at least leave the option for other users to enable for THEIR convenience.

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• Dec 22, 2022 - 19:22

Μου λείπουν πολύ τα κουμπιά "Save" "Open" όπως και το "Undo" από τη συνηθισμένη θέση του!
Μια λύση θα ήταν να μπορούμε μόνοι μας να επεξεργαζόμαστε και να τοποθετούμε τα κυριότερα κουμπιά στη θέση που θέλουμε.
Κάποια πράγματα καλό είναι να μην αλλάζουν όταν τα έχουμε συνηθίσει τόσο πολύ και σε τόσες πολλές εφαρμογές.
Επίσης μου λείπει η προεπισκόπηση εμφάνισης των γραμματοσειρών στη λίστα επιλογής τους και η δυνατότητα αντιγραφής/επικόλλησης τους για ευκολότερο ψάξιμο παρότι υπήρχαν σε παλιότερες εκδόσεις.
Πολύ κρίμα να γίνεται δυσκολότερη αντί για ευκολότερη η εργασία!

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 02:49

Just to make katerinatrgl1's post more accessible, the DeepL's translation from Greek to English:

"I really miss the "Save" "Open" buttons as well as the "Undo" button from its usual place!
A solution would be to be able to edit and place the main buttons in the position we want ourselves.
Some things are good not to change when we are so used to them and in so many applications.
I also miss the preview of displaying the fonts in the list and the ability to copy/paste them for
easier searching even though they were available in older versions.
Too bad it makes it harder instead of easier to work!
(Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) )

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• Dec 25, 2022 - 00:07

Seriously, Musescore 4 is what I would expect if I were to install a version of Musescore that was a couple of generations older, before features were added or streamlined.
No save button, you can't orient the properties panel along the bottom or automatically have access to font styling when adding text; you can't resize the program window properly. It seems to be one convenience after the next that's missing from this version. The customization options aren't very user friendly. What exactly was updated to make Musescore "better"?

Literally the only reason I updated was because I was having an issue in Musescore 3 where the letter V automatically hid everything; and I mean everything, even if you were adding lyrics or text and used the letter V in that text, the letter would be missing and the text box became invisible; and this wasn't assigned in the shortcuts, so I couldn't figure out how to get it to stop. I was going to post to the forum to try and figure it out, until I saw there was a new version released within a couple of days of experiencing this problem; so I figured, what the heck. But this new version is almost as big a pain.

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• Dec 25, 2022 - 01:01

So...MS4 doesn't look or work the same way MS3 does. It also doesn't work or look like two other notation programs I am familiar with. Features found in MS3 aren't present (yet) in MS4. Things got moved around. Longtime users of Sibelius have been through at least 4 upgrades that changed many things. Each time, people complained. The new version was unusable or too different or things got moved to a too different place. Some people quit using it. Most got over it and moved on and figured it out.
In your case, I think I might worry more about your letter V problem. That is interesting to me.

What is better about MS4. I would not pretend to understand the inner workings. I just know that I write for orchestra playback. Muse Sounds have their problems. But in general they give my full orchestra fortes a lot more punch and power. Solo sounds are sloppy.

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• Dec 25, 2022 - 23:21

I also request that an option be added to allow display of the Save icon. I work in a lot of programs and remembering all the shortcuts is something I would prefer to not have to do. In any event, I am very impressed with overall look and functionality of MuseScore 4.

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• Mar 11, 2023 - 15:42

I'm pretty sure the person working on MuseScore 4 is working very hard and has good motivations, but I think as a sign of respect to the whole community, it doesn't sound right to just ignore everybody else' opinion about this issue. It's very scarry indeed if a single person can decide what is good for everybody else and there can't be any discussion about it. Very scarry in my opinion. Sounds like : If you don't like what I want get out!

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 01:11

In general, when the save button is removed from applications, it's because there is an auto-save feature. Does anybody know if it's being considered to have Musescore auto-save scores?

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 02:16

There is an auto-save; it's been there since at least Musescore 3 as far as I'm aware (I just don't know when it was implemented or if it was part of Musescore 2). But I've had plenty of issues where the autosave just wasn't sufficient, either because it didn't save at the right time or was corrupted or whatever, and huge chunks of work were lost; and could be avoided if not for a quick click on an easy to access button, that you don't have to give much thought to.
When I'm working in a program that doesn't have a quick save icon, like Photoshop, I don't save nearly as often as I do in Word; and Photoshop doesn't have an autosave, while Word does. When a button is right there and easy to access, and is used frequently enough, it becomes more of a reflex to use it that you don't have to think about; which just isn't the case using the drop down menu, or even a keyboard shortcut.

At the very least, let it be a customization option that people add it back to the toolbar, if it's not going to be there by default. Why take it away entirely, and not give people who do use it the option to have it?

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 10:47

I'm with you. I don't like the keyboard shortcut because it's easier to fumble it (hit the wrong key) and especially because there's no visual feedback that the save happened (at least not on my computer which is quite fast). When I click a button, it reacts. That not only assures me that I've accomplished the save, but helps to imprint upon my mind that I did it (which helps me to keep a regular pace of doing it).

Having said that, I haven't had the bad experience you have had regarding the autosaves losing a significant amount of material. Are you aware you can configure Autosave to save as frequently as once per minute?

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 13:31

The feedback is, the asterisk in the filename on where it displays on the score tab - an asterisk means there are pending changes, no asterisk means there it has been saved. This usage of asterisks, like the shortcut, is standard across pretty much all applications on all operating systems.

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 16:53

I hadn't noticed that (in Musescore); and yes, it's definitely helpful, and I'm glad to know about it. As for being universal, however, the first other app I checked was Microsoft Word -- because it's the other document-creating app that I currently use next most often to Musescore -- and it doesn't do it. Same with Powerpoint, and presumably the rest of the Office apps. As we discussed once before, the Office apps are among the most-used software programs in existence.

I am using a 2016 version of Office -- it's entirely good enough for my needs -- so it's always possible that Microsoft has adopted the asterisk indicator since the 2016 version. Maybe someone else can say.

Word and Powerpoint do, I discovered, both provide an after-the-fact indication of Save status in their Undo icon, which is visible (on the title bar) but disabled when there are no changes to undo, and enabled when there are changes.

My password utility does use the asterisk indicator, which I hadn't realized, so that will be useful to know, too.

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 13:01

>> Word and Powerpoint do, I discovered, both provide an after-the-fact indication of Save status in their Undo icon, which is visible (on the title bar) but disabled when there are no changes to undo, and enabled when there are changes. <<

Actually, I just discovered that the enablement or not of the Undo button is not a reliable indicator or the Save status of an Office document. Instances of the latter allow you to undo changes made in the current editing session even after saving the file. So enablement of the Undo button indicates that there are changes made during the current editing session that can be undone -- not necessarily that there are changes that haven't been saved.

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 23:36

How is removing features that are in fact still commonly used,or at least not providing the flexibility for users to customize and enable a feature they frequently use, evolving or staying at the forefront?

It's the same problem I had with the Rest Input feature. It's still something you can toggle on or off from the toolbar, but was inexplicably removed so it can't be assigned in the custom keyboard shortcuts. Just because some of these things aren't something you personally use doesn't mean they no longer get used and need to be proactively removed from the software. You're literally making the program less useful when it it legitimately has fewer features.
There were a few other things along these lines that made it take longer to do the same work in Musescore 4 than in Musescore 3; and that's not progress or evolution. That's being shortsighted. After spending way too much time trying to make Musescore 4 work, I went back to 3 and plan to stay with that until either newer versions of Musesore improve, or I find another program that actually does what I need it to do, and and does it better than Musescore 3.

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 13:38

I think it is generally recognized that adding back the option to have a save button would be a good thing, and it's being considered.

I'm not understanding what you mean about rests, though - I'm not aware of any deliberate changes there. "0" continues to enter a rest just as always, and you can customize this how you like just as always. Maybe you are running into a bug of some kind that affects some specific score? Best to discuss that in a separate thread to ask about that. I see you did start a thread a while, and I respond explaining this, but you never followed up. So maybe do that and explain what you are trying to do in more detail there.

Most things in MuseScore 4 should be faster than they were in MsueScore 3, but it doesn't indeed take a minute to get used to the changes. So feel free o start additional threads with additional questions about how to do things efficiently. MuseScore most definitely does things better than MuseScore 3 in general - the engraving quality is absolutely objectively better the playback quality is miles and miles better, and the usability is better as measured by usability testing. But again, it does take a little adjustment.

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 14:31

>> I think it is generally recognized that adding back the option to have a save button would be a good thing, and it's being considered. <<

Much better than merely adding back the Save button would be to provide a facility that gives the user flexibility in what buttons appear on a toolbar.

Word has a "Quick Access Toolbar" that can be customized in two stages. (See screen shots below.) In the first stage, there is a menu that can be dropped down from a control on the toolbar itself that offers a selection of actions for which users commonly want buttons. The user can simply check which of those actions s/he wants represented on the toolbar.

But also on that menu is a "More Commands" option which opens a page in the comprehensive File/Options dialog (analogous to Musescore's Edit/Preferences dialog). That contains a list that can be expanded to encompass basically every action that can be performed within Word: meaning, a user can put a button on the Quick Access toolbar for literally any action the program will perform on command -- including user-defined actions implemented as macros.

I realize that the full implementation of the above would represent a deluxe address of the issue. But even a scaled-back version that allows the user some kind of flexibility in what commands s/he wants to see represented on the toolbar would be a lot better than simply putting Save back.

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Quick Access Toolbar - Customize Stage 1.png 14.87 KB
Quick Access Toolbar - Customize Stage 2.png 47.64 KB

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 14:43

Indeed, the exsiting faciity to add buttons to the toolbars (see the note input toolbar) would presumably leveraged.

The idea of a mode where you can more easily access all the different actions available - for instance, to perform any command by typing the first few letters of its name, or being able to assign to buttons - is also being discussed. It's considered especially important by blind users (the search by name more so than the buttons of course).

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 14:51

>> The idea of a mode where you can more easily access all the different actions available - for instance, to perform any command by typing the first few letters of its name, <<

I used not to be a fan of typey style interfaces, but have been won over by the Windows PowerTools* facility to launch programs. By pressing Alt+Spacebar, you get a dialog to appear in the middle of your screen with an input textbox. With each letter you type you get a dropdown list of programs with matching names. So to launch Musescore 3 or 4, I type Alt+Spacebar, "mu", select the version I want if it's not already the one selected, and press ENTER. Beats the heck out of navigating my way through a huge hierarchical menu.

Of course, hierarchical menus have their place when you don't know the name of what you're looking for, or you're not sure what operations are available.

*PowerTools being a downloadable extension to Windows

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 14:44

For that matter, Word provides a facility to customize its entire menu system (see screenshot). Reaper, I am given to understand though I have only dipped a toe in the water, provides extensive configurability of virtually every aspect of its user interface. I think the motive behind that is to encourage users to come over from competing DAWs by permitting them to bolt on an interface almost identical to the one in the program they're accustoming to using.

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Word - Customize Ribbon.png 73.14 KB

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• Apr 1, 2023 - 03:46

I'll throw in my vote to restore the usual file operation buttons - new and save, and maybe close. Whatever was there before.

Sometimes I like to be able to define my save point before attempting an operation that I am not sure will work out as I expect, such as to explode a staff into separate voices. The autosave cannot be controlled so directly. Yes, we can use the save menu or the quick key, but I rarely use quick keys because I use menu buttons. :)

Generally, I like the new interface, but I definitely missed it the first time I started editing a score in the new version.

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• Jul 30, 2023 - 19:00

Seems to me that the UI is already more customizable than MU3 ever was. So many things are not where they used to be. Yet the save button is the hot spot. We know that it is much faster to use shortcuts for everything. With that in mind, is it at all surprising that the save button got moved? Now you have to move the mouse, select file, select save. Or CTRL+S. I suspect that for someone who uses short cuts a lot, this is far more expedient. I wouldn't know. I am a mouser. I can't remember what all those possibilities are. And I don't want to. I would rather get on with it and write my music. I would rather do that then tell developers what they should do. Sure, if there is a glitch, They need to know about it. But the save button works just fine. It is in a different place. There are plenty of things that I use far more frequently that are in a totally different place. It is possible that this doesn't bother me that much because I use save as much more often. When I work on a piece for a while, I save as with a number after the title. I use a higher number after each session so that I cam go back to a previous version if I need to. So I am used to having to go to file to do what I need. There may be no one else that works that way. I could ask the developers to move the save as function to the main tool bar.

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• Jul 30, 2023 - 20:54

It's not in a "different place" though, because those other options have always been there. The issue is taking away a specific iteration of the feature, the Save button from the toolbar, which is still common and convenient for many people.
What's more, there's a reason these toolbar buttons exist in the first place - for their expediency of use for regularly executed functions. Applying the same reasoning here for removing of the button from the toolbar, they should just get rid of the tool bar entirely; because you can just use the drop down menu to select the note duration or a tie. Or you can use a keyboard shortcut - you just have to memorize however many different combinations of the keys and their different functions. Who needs a toolbar? It just takes up space.
Of course when the option to have a keyboard shortcut for Rest Input was removed with the initial release of MuseScore 4, the counter argument to that was to use the toolbar.... 🙄🤦‍♂️
But that option seems to be getting added back.

All of that isn't to say that these other options don't get used. I use the keyboard shortcuts all the time to change the key duration or any number of other steps when working in MuseScore (including Rest input, which is a separate point of contention, with it's dedicated and belabored thread).
It comes back to the customizability; and I'm not saying MuseScore isn't customizable. For all those keyboard shortcuts I use, I've actually changed those shortcuts to keyboard settings I find more convenient, to make my working on stuff as fluid as possible for me. And I've developed a rhythm based on the shortcuts I know and am used to. Which is the case for a lot of people. There are certain user operations that people become accustomed to and can do without thinking; and Saving is arguably one of them. There may be a lot of ways of doing that, and depending on the way you do it, you probably don't think about it until you suddenly have to do it differently. Then it breaks that rhythm and requires you to be more conscious what you're doing.
By removing the option to even have the button, others have decided that because they don't use it, nobody else needs it. Instead of they could have deprecated the button, and just not having it included in the toolbar by default, but left it as an option for people to add back to their workspace/toolbar for those who still prefer that method of using the function.

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• Jul 30, 2023 - 22:24

Well, I get that today, the idea is to get everything done as quickly and mindlessly as possible. I suppose that may be the case for transcription work. You want the save button back because it helps you work smother. I get it. Although after nine months I suspect you might get used to another way of doing things. Or not.

I use MU4 for composition. For me, there is nothing mindless or automatic about it. Every keystroke and mouse click is deliberate. Every note is considered before placement. Though subject to revision. The only flow that is important is that which results in what I want to happen. To that end, I use whatever the software allows me. Where ever a function is located, that is where I go and use it and move on. I can waste my time lamenting the loss of the camera, or the save button, or a dozen other things that are vastly different. Or I can get on with what is most important to me. And that is writing music. I have two notation programs. They couldn't be more different. I use each for different reasons. In the 16 years I've used Sibelius, I just now noticed that it has a save button on the home screen. How about that. I never noticed it because I never learned to use it from there. It doesn't change anything for me. Sure, if there was no save function in the file menu, I would have to learn a different way of doing things.

If the save button doesn't come back, then what?

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 01:10

I mean, I would argue that a good, reliable work flow is analogous to playing an instrument. I know my computer keyboard well enough, and my setup within MuseScore 3, that I can and have gone through and input or edit music in M3 as about efficiently as person of intermediate proficiency can play the actual music on a piano.
So tell me how you would feel if someone decided you don't actually need the G# key? The ability to still play the note is there, there's just an extra step or two required. And really, how often do you even play G# anyway?

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 03:05

This analogy would only work if someone had moved the save button on all software. And you don't say if Ab is also affected. Besides, I don't play piano. On other instruments, there is usually more than one way to play a given note. But I get your point.
Although efficiency is not my goal. A musical result is. There is a difference.

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 03:26

In my case It hasn't been 9 months, since I couldn't install MS4 and make it work in W7. So I had to wait to be able to change my OS to W10.
I too use MS for composition, and focus on the notes and other elements of the music rather than opening pop-down menus, but I don't like to lose my work (computer crashes... they happen in the best families :) ). That's why I need a button right there to allow me to save frequently and effortlessly.
It is good to learn new things, but interesting things, not a new indirect way of doing something you already did directly because somebody closed the possibility claiming it belongs to the past era.

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 04:06

But if it is so important, isn't it worth the extra effort? And move on?
Composition for me is not quick, or effortless. And, as I said, I seldom use the save button. I suppose if I ever had MuseScore crash, I might feel differently. But it has never crashed doing the things I use it for. I know there are many reports of constant crashes. Not a problem for me. I have had a crash doing something that someone else said made their system crash. Though not always. But they are things I don't do anyway.

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 19:01

Sorry, my english is not the best, but I feel this discussion is so frustrating, and it just feels like some people have absolute power, and everybody else just has to shut up there mouth and do whatever the people in power have decided. I mean, if those in power decide they are not bringing back the Save button, we that find the removal frustrating can't do much; can we?... But it's almost abusive that we are being treated and talked to as morons or dumb people!!! The fact is the button was removed and it's causing frustration for many, but people are just deliberately playing down that situation with all kinds of argumentations, most that are not actually true. For instance, someone said only half a dozen people missed the button because only that many people are complaining. Of course! When a debate is violently shout down and people are treated as morons for complaining, I guess, that is a way to encourage discussion!!! Also, it was said the feature is a very uncommon one. Looks like we are on very different planets using very distinct softwares. Pretty much every single software I use in life or work happen to have that button. Also in the past, it was said there is and autosave function. Right; but many softwares that REALLY do autosave don't seem to use the '*' until data is saved. They just save as you go. Here, there is some delay between saves and even last week, I lost data and had to rewrite because MS4 crashed before saving. So at the question 'If the save button doesn't come back, then what?' I reply, not much of course! The persons who have absolute power to do what they want, and I guess we have to go with it. But we could also ask : What is preventing the button to be there and those who don't use it just ignore it? Or even make it an option as suggested before? Seems to me this is less harming, but for some reason that can't be understood, you can't debate without getting some sarcastic and offending replies. Even though there is still a lot of empty room on the toolbar...

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 20:46

As I have tried to stress over and over, reasoned technical debate is welcome. Sarcasm has no place on either side. Nor is it acceptable for anyone on either side to be treating anyone as dumb.

So I propose we leave this thread as a place for people to continue to vent unproductively and to criticize each other personally all they want. I'll bow out of that, though. Then if someone ever feels like conducting a technical discussion of the issues, start a new thread for that.

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• Aug 2, 2023 - 03:48

OK, here is my technical discussion: Reinstalling the save button in the toolbar is trivial, no technical difficulty at all, as it existed in all previous versions. There is plenty space on the tool bar to locate the button without cluttering the interface at all. People who never used that button say they hadn't even noticed its existence, and I can tell the same regarding the number of buttons I've never used in many applications that I use . They become part of the "landscape" without creating any conflict. From the point of view of design its presence would alleviate the sensation of emptiness caused by unoccupied spaces (which is emphasized by the lack of symmetry of the void spaces). Its presence is not incompatible to the other methods such as Ctrl+S, autosave or saving from the menu. In contrast, its absence imposes a loss of time on mouse users. I've measured the time it takes to enter the menu, wait it opens, move the pointer downwards, click on Save, and move it upwards to be able to open the menu again: It took an average of 2 s, while in version 3.6 it took only 0.5 s (I've counted the number of cycles within 15 s: 8 menu-based vs 31 button-based).
The feature does exist in the vast majority of the applications, particularly in those in which there is intense editing activity so the risk of losing work as a consequence of a program or system crash is important. The exceptions are applications such as system terminals such as dos or bash, which don't have save function (except for command history) and web browsers, where there is very little editing so saving is not relevant (and not saving isn't risky).

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• Aug 2, 2023 - 03:58

Hear, hear! The only thing I'd add to you comment is to paste it as a new thread, where it can be the basis of a fresh discussion; since some users feel this thread has devolved or not to be taken as serious.
Honestly, if I could delete the thread, I'd have done it long ago. Though I appreciate the people who have taken sincere support on the point.

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• Aug 2, 2023 - 04:11

Why do you have to open the menu again?
I don't think that anyone is denying that it takes longer to use the file menu. Although I use a trackball mouse, which is faster over all. How do you know that restoring the save button is trivial? If so, why hasn't a user with some coding knowledge done it already. I have no sensation of emptiness or un-balance. I just use the UI. I'm not saying it shouldn't be restored. I just can't get excited about it either way.

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• Aug 2, 2023 - 10:11

Actually it is a 1-liner...

diff --git a/src/appshell/view/publish/publishtoolbarmodel.cpp b/src/appshell/view/publish/publishtoolbarmodel.cpp
index 13aa6fe8c8..4aaf4d6547 100644
--- a/src/appshell/view/publish/publishtoolbarmodel.cpp
+++ b/src/appshell/view/publish/publishtoolbarmodel.cpp
@@ -38,7 +38,8 @@ void PublishToolBarModel::load()
         makeMenuItem("print"),
         makeMenuItem("file-publish"),
         makeMenuItem("file-share-audio"),
-        makeMenuItem("file-export")
+        makeMenuItem("file-export"),
+        makeMenuItem("file-save")
     };
 
     setItems(items);

Screenshot 2023-08-02 111420.png

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• Dec 25, 2023 - 04:48

Follow-up question - first a quick comment, that the modifications you made have worked great; I've been using this modified version of MuseScore 4 for a few months now and I'm very pleased with it.
So my question is, with the release of MuseScore 4.2, is there a simple of being able to upgrade moving forward, and keep this mod? I suspect the answer is probably not, short of you or someone continually making that change to each subsequent release; which you should have to do. I'd be curious if there'd be some way of integrating it as some kind of override or plugin that would rollover with each update.

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• Jun 8, 2024 - 16:54

I saw a notification from github regarding the revised copy of musescore with the Save button. I thought it might have been an update of the latest version, but I'm not finding the option to download the installer, and I see that the download for https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/pull/20707, for 4.2.1 has expired. Can you clarify if this was an update or removing that installer?

I want to reiterate that I really like the change you made; and thank you again for doing that. I hope whomever makes the programming decisions for the official MuseScore release incorporates these changes permanently, especially since the work has been done for them.

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• Jun 8, 2024 - 18:06

Cool. Thank you so much for that. I wish the changes could at least be done as an "override," if it's not going to be implemented into the official software; like with some website CMS template, where you can update the core CMS, but certain custom revisions are sort of partitioned and sustained across updates.

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• Aug 5, 2023 - 19:27

Ah, thank you! When I originally saw that post in my email, I only saw "added to PR" and I thought it was a response to other messages I saw about people not being able to comment on the github post; and I thought you were adding them or something.
This is perfect, thank you very much!

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• Aug 5, 2023 - 19:34

Honestly, this might actually work even better than the standard position, because I like to undock the Note Input toolbar and kind of have it floating near the middle of the score. Any other app it's completely the opposite, but I came to find that a preferable workflow with MuseScore; having the save button grouped together with the input buttons, and a customizable position within that space, is excellent.

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• Aug 2, 2023 - 06:16

The reopening of the menu simulates the process of moving from the score to the menu.
I explained how I performed my experiment so that others can replicate it if they want. The process of getting back to the score is similar with and without the button (the mean distance is similar). Assuming saving once per minute (this may be conservative for certain people like me), in an 8 hour session it means 720 seconds (= 8 x 60 x (2 - 0.5)) or 12 min differential time wasted in unnecessary movements. I prefer to use that time to have a drink or talk to someone.
By the way, also tested Ctrl-S for a mouse user like me. There are three possibilities:
1) Using the left hand to press Ctrl and the right to press S,
2) keeping the left hand at rest on the table and moving it all the way to the key combination when needing to save, and
3) keeping the left hand with the pinky hovering over the Ctrl key and the forefinger over the S key ready to press the keys when necessary.
The first is what I do when writing text (with Shift instead of Ctrl), but is impractical when the right hand is using the mouse most of the time. 2) is the most ergonomic of practical alternatives, it takes 0.7 s (probably more in a practical scenario, since my test was repetitive so some muscle working memory may have helped in speeding the movements up). 3) is fast but stressful for the hand, likely to produce some articulation trauma sooner or later.
I know that restoring the save button is trivial because the button is already in the menu so not much of a deal moving or copying it elsewhere; and because eons ago I have been able to create a working mini application (something similar to a very simple Paint) with buttons and menus using something as elementary (at the time) as Visual Basic, in a few hours, with zero previous experience in graphic programming.
Finally, we don't know whether there is someone at large who fixed it for their own use. For a random person with some programming skills it would take too much time to locate the portions of the code to hack in order to restore the button. Then there is the problem of attempting to have the code accepted (an incentive for taking the effort), which is not likely to happen having been the discussion closed. However, for a developer who already knows the code, it would be a no brainer.

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• Aug 3, 2023 - 10:26

I did not realize not everybody can comment on this on gitub.
When someone says:
Sorry, but I really don't see what's the advantage of having a save button on the Publish tab, since it's also in the menu
one may not ask over there why then that publish tab exist in the first place, since everything on that tab is also in the menu.
So why is there a Publish tab?

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• Aug 3, 2023 - 11:43

> "one may not ask over there why then that publish tab exist in the first place"
Yes and No ;-)

It's not that one might not ask about this over on Github; it's that that specific pull request is not the best place to broaden the discussion about design decisions that may have lead to said pull request. Issues and pull requests on Github are best kept terse and to a narrow focus point, to limit the amount of information to just the relevant information to that sub-item only. That way, the in-house team can more easily review and or merge/handle the issues.

For broader discussion, there are the forums here; or the separate "Discussions" option of Github (which has a smaller audience than here).

As for the Publish Tab in itself; from posts throughout the months I gather that there is some more functionality to be populated there to.
For me personally, I use it as a print-preview and the place for me to take screenshot from or for my students to use as a practice-mode view. As they can't accidentally edit a note by dragging when they are navigating the score. And this score view most definitely is not in the menu somewhere as a single-click option.

If the remark is just about the toolbar, then yes; all of those icons are available on the menu as well and one could just do without them. After all, it only saves a click (and the wait time for the menu to open on some systems..).
But the same holds true for any toolbar, like the note input toolbar in the Score view as well. As a matter of fact, I have a workspace without any toolbars that maximizes the score view as I'm pretty much solely a keyboard user. And those actions can be found in the menu as well..

But I think (note the think here) the philosophy of that toolbar in Publish is just like the one in the Score tab; to have the most used actions from that tab available. In essence not "that" different from how a ribbon-style menu works.
And to that end, I think it makes sense to have that toolbar in Publish. Just as I think it makes sense to have (the option) of having a File Operations toolbar or (even better, but a bit more development work) to have the option to freely create your own toolbars. And as such, an intermediary step I feel to be logical would be to allow the current toolbar customization options to include as many of the available actions; including Save.

I do not think the default experience and layout must change from what it is now, but I do believe toolbar customization is a good thing and should include (at least) previously available actions that still exist.

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• Aug 4, 2023 - 07:45

Just curious about or my students to use as a practice-mode view. As they can't accidentally edit a note by dragging when they are navigating the score.
On my system, it is completely possible to drag a note while in publish tab.
Incidentally, is there a way to lock a score? There is a shortcut for it, but it does not work.

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• Aug 5, 2023 - 02:12

I believe the Publish tab has been prioritized because it links to MuseScore.com, a paid service, and also in Audio.com, a service which I couldn't ascertain if it is free, or free up to certain amount, but for which the content providers (those who upload audio from MuseScore, for example) grant a perpetual free-of-charge license.

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• Aug 5, 2023 - 02:30

When you have had the unfortunate experience of losing your work because of program or system crashes, regardless of having activated auto-save (which in those cases doesn't work as expected --Murphy takes no break...--, you do save quite frequently. You seem to be assuming everybody has to have your work flow, or the stability of your system, or your virtuosity on the keyboard.

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• Aug 5, 2023 - 05:01

I'm not saying you shouldn't save frequently.
Today, for the first time that I can remember, MU4 crashed. This was a score loaded as a mxl from another notation program. Dynamics and hairpins don't work correctly. So I wasn't totally surprised when it failed trying to do an instrument change. I needed to strip out remnants from the other software. The only thing I could think of was to Extract the mscx from the file and open it. Then the change instrument worked. Did I fix it? Unclear. But it seems to me that a program doesn't crash all the time of it's own accord. Something is causing it. Yes My system seems to be pretty stable. And it is worth the time I put into it to make it that way.

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• Aug 6, 2023 - 07:53

I've never said the system or the program crashes all the time, but when it does it's very upsetting and you'll be very likely losing unsaved work. After a couple of bad experiences like this (many years ago) I've learned the hard way that I should better save after any relevant change.

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• Aug 6, 2023 - 08:56

I agree;
While auto-save works reasonably well, there is a real problem if you have never saved a score.
In that case a file new_project.mscz is created. Which get overwritten if you start a 2nd new score.
If you are not very careful, you end up loosing everything in case of a crash.
Therefore, one should save. And a save button can probably help.
I really think most MS users are occasional users, and probably most of them do not know any shortcuts. All professionals i know use Sibelius anyway.
I am in favor of putting the button in the 'note input' bar. (which can be renamed to 'toolbar' or whatever if needed....)
Giving users the choice of showing it, or not. Let users be in control.
Creating different layouts for Windows/Mac and Linux seems a very bad idea (IMHO).

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• Aug 6, 2023 - 16:34

And I do a Save As after every relevant change with a new version number. So I have to go to the File tab anyway. So I would need that button on the main UI also. I doubt that will ever happen. Look, I get that people want the save button moved, and why. Seems odd to me to not use the program because of it, as some have said.
And I have Sibelius. Some thigs are better. Some are not.

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• Aug 6, 2023 - 21:21

OK, that's your workflow and it's all right. In fact I too keep different versions, but not as frequently. Other people have other workflows. And if full toolbar customization were allowed, you could include the the "Save as" button. As regards not using the program because of the lack of the save button, I counted a joke and mostly rhetoric.

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• Aug 6, 2023 - 21:34

I never said anyone should adopt my workflow. Just that I don't care where those buttons are. Other people do. I get it. Why is it OK for them to state the reasons for wanting a change (legitimate as they may be) and not OK for me to see things a little differently?
For all we know, most of what anyone says here ( including me) might be rhetoric

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• Aug 7, 2023 - 07:54

I promise this is my last comment on your comments (unless you ask me). You argue that it should be OK for you to see things differently, and it is, indeed, except that I'm afraid you haven't made your point clearly. Are you in favor of the button, against it, or you just don't care? Because if you don't care I don't se how it is relevant to the discussion.
I think the number of replies to your comments is because we don't understand your point. There has been a proposal and several people supporting it with arguments. The only arguments against the button were 1) It is something from the past 2) It clutters the interface. "I don't care" or "I don't need it / wouldn't use it anyway / didn't even notice it" don't seem to be arguments but personal attitudes, respectable and informative but not helping the discussion.

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• Aug 7, 2023 - 18:49

The argument is that there needs to be a save button where it was in MU3, because of workflow. I understand that. Though that could also be a personal attitude. An argument like UI balance is a personal attitude. And time lost based on saving every minute is just an odd argument. Nobody is saying it doesn't take longer to go to the save option now.
I have indeed been wrong about the lack of a save button in Word. I don't remember using it, so I don't remember seeing it. My mistake.
I would think that my opinion isn't so hard to figure out.
It is interesting to me that of all the things that are different and annoying about MU4, the save button is strangely top of the list. Yes, a personal attitude. Some of the problems destroy workflow altogether. Not just slow it down. Another personal attitude.
Although with posts by Jojo, it may soon be a moot point. That's fine by me. Oops, another personal attitude:) Sorry.

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• Aug 5, 2023 - 06:24

I have a stable system and I have afast work-flow. MuseScore is the unstable element. Because I enter so quickly, I stand to lose more than average with a crash.

I don't work on scores or any other documents without them sitting inside folder synced to Dropbox or OneDrive. That gives me virtually unlimited versioning automatically. That has saved me from cases where MuseScore has also managed to corrupt its backup version during a crash.

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• Jul 31, 2023 - 22:54

What's the fuss about one button? I love every bit of my brand new system. I'm now capable of jamming out ten more Kinderszenen, and giving my abductor minimi digitus a workout all at once! Wunderbar! Watch out, world, my left pinky's gonna be most jacked.

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• Aug 7, 2023 - 10:23

We've obtained a piece of crucial information from an anonymous sources just now. It has been confirmed, in the desperate attempt to prevent a dreadful catastrophic incident, there has been an unspoken yet common practice among all ranking comrades, since 24th February 2022, to neutralize pushables regardless of their utilities. While most of us acknowledge the unfortunate collateral damages generated, we are cautiously optimistic the situation will not improve in the foreseeable future, as the issue has evolved into cleavage of left-right ideology (the LH and RH that is).
You can help save buttons right now, by joining our cause online: Negotiable Objection, Modest and Open Request for an Extra Button Society (N.O. M.O.R.E. B.S.) (Poccnr), or contact one of the following regional entities:
British Button Society (UK)
National Button Society (US)
Fibule (France)
Dutch Antique Button Society (Netherlands)
The Victorian Button Collectors Club (Melbourne, Australia)

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• Jun 8, 2024 - 18:51

With all due respect to everyone here…

I’m a product of the late 1940s, which makes me an official old fart. When I got my first Apple computer in the 90s, one of the first things I learned was six important shortcut keys: CMD+ Z, X, C, V for Undo, Cut, Copy, and Paste, and A (Select All) and S (Save). These have remained the same through multiple OS and program updates. I simply cannot imagine using the mouse to click on an icon or menu for these functions.

Disclaimers: I use a US keyboard, so I don’t know how those functions work on others, nor how they might affect those with accessibility issues.

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• Jun 8, 2024 - 20:53

That's all well and fine... for YOU. But icons for a whole host of functions, including Save, open, copy, paste, etc. were integrated into most interfaces afterwards and for a reason; because many people, if not most found it more convenient. A ) Why go backwards and take away functions? And B ) How does it harm you to allow others who do use it to have the OPTION? It's not an either/or thing; I'm not sitting here arguing they should take away the keyboard shortcut to save in order to get the icon back. There can be a happy medium. There are things I use icons/buttons for, and there are things I use keyboard shortcuts for; and sometimes there's overlap between the two that just depends on the circumstances. I've changed a bunch of the default keyboard shortcuts in MuseScore to suit a workflow that works for me, but I wouldn't expect it to necessarily work for everyone. That's meant removing some default shortcuts I just don't use, or redefining them to something else. If it was convenient for me to change or even lose the ctrl-s shortcut to save in favor of something else, I see no problem with that, as long as I have other options to accomplish that task that I find at least as convenient. When I'm working on stuff, I'm usually using the mouse quite a bit and it quite effortless to be able to just hit the icon to save.
Allow the user to configure their workspace in a way that works the most effectively for them; and then live and let live. As Jojo-Schmitz has demonstrated, it's not even that hard to do (comparatively). Their solution is perfect; giving the user the option to add it to the Note Input toolbar is an excellent way to allow for customization of the workspace. It's a shame that after all these months and multiple updates of MuseScore 4, that this can't just be implemented into the official software.

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• Jun 8, 2024 - 21:02

I'd like to see the option return as well, not for my own benefit but simply because it's clear some subset of users want it. That said, the note input toolbar is definitely the wrong place for it, since it has nothing at all to do with note input. Really, there should be some design consideration to how to better accommodate an additional toolbar, or to combine it with the undo/redo buttons or the parts/mixer or other more "global" buttons. Not that this is hard to do, but someone has to decide it's sufficiently important to sit down and do the design, and then someone has to implement it. I d know they have stated there are plans for additional toolbars and that is why they don't want to make any design choices yet that would need to be thrown away later.

All of which is to say, again, I agree it should happen, but it's not really as simple as you are thinking.

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• Jun 9, 2024 - 01:22

I don't know that I agree with it being the "wrong" place for the button, by virtue of the toolbar being the "note input button," so much as it might be a misnomer to limit the use of the toolbar by qualifying it as only viable for that purpose. I've been using it this way for months, and it's perfectly positioned where I want it/need it; which is side by side with the other common buttons I use when working in MuseScore. I've got the Open and New icons loaded on there too; and wish I could add the undo/redo buttons.

Just generally more flexibility to customize the workflow would be nice. Especially where stuff can be docked or adjusting the width of panels to make them less intrusive.

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