I want a particular note to have an accidental in a bar and not have musecore changing them back

• Mar 15, 2024 - 18:12

I have Musescore 3.6.2.5
The key of the music is F Major. All the B's are flat. I want to make all the B's in one bar B natural. I place the natural sign in front of the first B in the bar, and Musescore flattens all the following. That is not the standard protocol when writing music. Until one places another accidental sign in front of, for example the B, they should remain flattened until the next bar. I find this really annoying that I have to put naturals in front of all the B's in the bar to stop Musescore from flattening them automatically. Is there a way to stop Musescore from doing this?
Thanks Kwisj


Comments

Dude: The day may soon come when apps can read our minds—but it hasn't happened yet.

What you've described MuseScore doing is normal behaviour in every notation app.

When we enter new notes, we enter them how we want them. If we want B-naturals, we enter B-naturals.

What you're describing is changing existing notes. That's fine—but just because you change one note from Bb to B-natural, MuseScore doesn't assume you want all the following Bb's to do the same. (I'd find that presumptuous, frustrating and time-consuming, myself.)

As Raymond suggested, the quickest way to change multiple existing notes is to hold Ctrl (or Command in iOS) to select them, then use the appropriate command. So, for example, to change multiple Bb's to B-naturals:

  1. Hold Ctrl (or Command) and click each note you want to change.
  2. Press the Up arrow key (or click the toolbar's "natural" symbol) to move the notes up a half-step, so Bb becomes B-natural.

Hope this helps!

In reply to by Andy Fielding

Thanks, Dude. The app doesn't have to read our minds. As I explained the rule is, once an accidental is placed before a note, all the following notes in the same bar are subject to that first accidental: you don't have to keep writing the accidental in the same bar before all the same notes. This is pretty much page one of musical theory. Imagine if you have 16th notes in 4/4 time in F major and you want to flatten the B's in one bar. You're going to have to place 16 natural accidentals in front of each of the 16 16th notes? Sounds a bit stupid to me, when the rule is you only have to place one natural sign in front of the first note for all the following notes in the same bar to be flattened. Sounds to me a fairly simple peace of coding to fix to follow the rules. The key signatures do something pretty much the same. I only have musescore, and not any other apps, so I wouldn't know about them. I have RSM grade 10 piano which helps with an understaning of the rules of musical notation!!
Cheers, Dude

In reply to by kwisj

And what if I don't want the other Bs to be naturals? Then I'd have to tell MuseScore to explicitly make them all flats or there would have to be a setting to turn the behaviour on or off. Looking at a range of music it seems that more often than not the natural is a one-off and other notes in the bar revert back to their key-signature assigned state so that should be the default behaviour IMHO and that is what MuseScore does, dude.

In reply to by kwisj

You must distinguish between writing new notes and the subsequently changing of existing notes.

Enter new notes:
Write a B♭, change it to B with the up arrow key and when writing further B notes in this measure will then be B's. If you continue writing in the next measure, they will be B♭'s again. As it must be.

Change existing notes:
When changing a note, Musescore will only change this note, all others remain unchanged, e.g. the next note will become a flat sign again. It is by design and that's a good thing!
If you want to change all notes in the measure from B♭ to B, select all B♭ notes, press the up arrow key and then only the first note will receive the natural sign.

In reply to by kwisj

You wrote:
...once an accidental is placed before a note, all the following notes in the same bar are subject to that first accidental...

Correct, so enter note entry mode and press B:
One B.png
Next, enter another note and place an accidental before it. So, enter a Bb:
B and B flat.png
At this point, if you keep typing 'B', the notes are subject to that flat accidental (and are sounded as B-flat) until the end of the bar. Just as the rule states.
BBBBS.png
In the measure above, beats 2, 3, and 4 are played flat.

In reply to by Jm6stringer

Yes, that's the behavior and it's a good behavior!

And this behavior is different when you edit an already written note: It keeps everyone else at the previous pitch. And that is also good behavior!
And the behavior does not contradict the textbook of music theory, because changing one or more notes afterwards is not dealt with there at all. It only says how the notation must be interpreted.

In reply to by kwisj

kwisj > Thanks, Dude. The app doesn't have to read our minds. As I explained the rule is, once an accidental is placed before a note, all the following notes in the same bar are subject to that first accidental: you don't have to keep writing the accidental in the same bar before all the same notes...

I'm not trying to be condescending (really!), but is it possible this is your first experience with notation software? If so, I can understand your confusion.

You're absolutely right—in notation, the rule is that an accidental also applies to any subsequent instances of that note in that bar (until a different accidental appears on one of them).

However, when you're editing music in a notation app, that music is still being created—and the app doesn't assume that when you change one note in a bar, you want to change all of them. You must choose to do that, by selecting all the notes you want to change, and changing them.

kwisj > Imagine if you have 16th notes in 4/4 time in F major and you want to flatten the B's in one bar. You're going to have to place 16 natural accidentals in front of each of the 16 16th notes?

No, you don't have to add 16 separate accidentals. 😊 To change adjoining notes, click the first one to select it:

ms_0.png

Then hold Shift and click the last one, to select all the notes in that range:

ms_1.png

(Or if you prefer, you can hold Shift and drag a selection box around them.) Then press your Up or Down arrow key to raise or lower those notes half a step:

ms_2.png

Voila!

ms_3.png

To change multiple non-adjoining notes, hold Ctrl, click each one to select it, then press the arrow key.

Personally, I'd find it maddening if, each time I wanted to change one note in a bar, I then had to stop and un-change all the rest. So like most of the people here, I'm grateful it works this way. I'm also grateful that if I change a word in my word processor, it doesn't assume I want to change that word throughout the whole paragraph... It's the same principle.

This is just how MuseScore works, as have the many other notation programs I've used over my 30-odd-year composing/arranging/editing career. As you continue to use MS, you may realize why it's this way by design—so we can stay in control of what we write. Cheers!

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In reply to by rothers

Dudes, as you can see from one of the first pages of a musical theory textbook, musescore is doing what the book says 'NOT' to do. I can change the notes myself, but according to musical theory what MS is doing is wrong. A simple answer would have been. 'No!' MS can't do what you ask, you have to let i do what it, incorrectly does, and then edit it.
Cheers Dudes

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In reply to by kwisj

From your textbook:
Once an accidental has appeared in a bar, it remains in force until the end of the bar...

Okay, so start writing in the Key of F and enter one B:
First B.png
That one B sounds as B flat - because it honors the key signature.
You then type 'B' again but think: "I want that to be natural". So you make it a B natural:
B natural.png
At that point, if you keep typing 'B', the accidental (in this case, the natural) remains in force until the end of the bar, exactly as your textbook says:
More Bs.png
Deleting the key signature shows that the second measure B's are indeed played flat. The natural doesn't hold for the second measure. (Again, it follows your textbook)
Delete KS 2.png

Additional points...
For some people, a courtesy key signature may be desired in F major:
Courtesy.png

Finally, the takeaway from all this is that you must distinguish when entering new notation from editing already existing notation.

The title of your thread reads as follows:
I want a particular note to have an accidental in a bar and not have musecore changing them back
Then further on, you wrote:
The key of the music is F Major. All the B's are flat.

Okay, so we have one flat in the key signature:
KeySig.png
...and to confirm, deleting the Key Signature shows all the B's are indeed flat:
KS deleted.png
You wrote:
I want to make all the B's in one bar B natural. I place the natural sign in front of the first B in the bar, and Musescore flattens all the following.
Okay, so you changed one B to a natural!!!
Natural.png

MuseScore does not flatten all the following. They remain the same as originally entered. They were entered as flat B's. Deleting the F major key signature will still show them as B flat. Notice the second measure here:
Del KeySig 2.png
and compare that second measure to the one in the previous image. (No key signature vs. key signature)

If you want to change all the B's, you select all the B's you wish to change.

In reply to by Jm6stringer

All this thread is about should MuseScore preserve the note as it is written (A) or as it sounds (B).
The current implentation is B, MuseScore does what is needed to preserve the existing pitch.
I would like to have the option to have behaviour A, just keep the note as it is written.
With the current behaviour it is impossible to enter a score without inputting first the correct key.
Why can't I enter a melody in A major without having absolutely to enter the key "first"? On paper I can add the key later and the paper won't suddenly add a natural sign to all F, C and G notes like MuseScore does.
Or I can have a score in A minor and just want to see how it plays in major by just changing the key ... I can't ( I mean I can't by just changing the key like you 'd do on a score for a human player).
Or, like the OP did, enter a melody without entering the accidentals right away and then have the problem that MuseScore insists you change all pitches one by one in the measure.
In fact, MuseScore at least until V3 was always been advertised as notation first playback second, but still be stuck in a pitch first written note second mindset

In reply to by frfancha

You wrote:
With the current behaviour it is impossible to enter a score without inputting first the correct key.
Why can't I enter a melody in A major without having absolutely to enter the key "first"?

Try this:
In MuseScore, don't enter a key signature. Simply enter an A onto the staff.
Next, in your head, hum a melody - for example, the major scale (sounds like Do -Re - Mi -Fa...etc.).
Starting from the already entered A, write each successive major scale note on the staff until you reach the A an octave above the first A.
Without a key signature, you must enter accidentals to make the major scale "sound right". This would be true whether entered on paper, or into MuseScore.
scale.png
The great thing about MuseScore is that adding an A major key signature (3 sharps) will automatically eliminate the need for sharp accidentals on F, C, and G - as they are now specified by the key signature. On paper, you would have to erase all the accidentals after specifying the key signature.
Any tune can be "hummed" and entered without a key signature. In the days of Wikifonia, I saw scores posted and often wondered, for instance: "Why does every single F in this song have a sharp in front of it?" The answer was that the poster blissfully hummed and entered notes, while neglecting to add a key signature afterwards.

You wrote:
On paper I can add the key later and the paper won't suddenly add a natural sign to all F, C and G notes like MuseScore does.

If you look at the picture above, MuseScore did not "suddenly add a natural sign to all F, C and G notes".

You also wrote:
Or, like the OP did, enter a melody without entering the accidentals right away and then have the problem that MuseScore insists you change all pitches one by one in the measure.

I have seen people here neglecting to notice/enter the key signature before they start to transcribe a score. Then they try to add the key signature after they had copied all the notes from the score (with the key signature) onto their score (without any key signature). That's why it's a good idea to keep 'Play Notes When Editing' selected in Edit > Preferences. It allows one to hear when things don't "sound right" (due to missing accidentals - which, btw, are found in that neglected key signature).

In reply to by Jm6stringer

@jm6stringer you wrote :
"You changes one B to a natural."
I disagree with "one", this is not a fact, this is only how MuseScore sees it.
The only fact here is a natural sign was added in front of the first B.
On paper this would mean changing all B's of the measure.
Deciding that only the first pitch should be changed and automatically adding a flat in front of the next B is implementation. I'm not saying a bad choice, but a choice, and not the only possible one.

In reply to by frfancha

You wrote:
I disagree with "one", this is not a fact, this is only how MuseScore sees it.
The OP states:
I place the natural sign in front of the first B in the bar...

Okay, so how many B's are "the first B in the bar"? If more than one, then there would be a second, third, etc.

You wrote:
Deciding that only the first pitch should be changed and automatically adding a flat in front of the next B is implementation.

The OP states:
I place the natural sign in front of the first B in the bar, and Musescore flattens all the following.

Only the first pitch should be changed because only the first pitch was selected. The others remain flat.

(Edited after @frfancha edited his original "adding a natural in front of the next B is implementation" to "adding a flat in front of the next B is implementation". So, I changed my response accordingly.)

In reply to by Jm6stringer

And another way of looking at it.

Instead of adding a natural sign you can change the pitch of a note by selecting it and clicking up or down arrow. The pitch changes by a semitone with each click and Musescore adds the appropriate accidental. So, in the OP's case, click on the first Bb and press up arrow Its pitch is raised a semitone, a natural is added and a flat is added to the second, unchanged note.

What would happen if instead of pressing up arrow you press down arrow? The pitch would be lowered a semitone and Musescore would move the note down to show it as an A. The pitch of the second and subsequent notes would be unchanged and they would remain where they started. Working the way the OP seems to expect, changing that first Bb to an A would also change the following Bbs to As which might be consistent, but very unlikely to be wanted.

I think the OP needs to change his expectations to match the way Musescore actually works, rather than the other way round.

In reply to by SteveBlower

Interesting point about lowering Bb into an A note, but that moves us beyond the nature and essence of the concept 'accidental' since the note name itself is changed from B to A (unlike the double flat accidental bb which still behaves as an 'accidental').

Note for all:
Be aware of the difference when using the flat sign (or other accidental) from the note toolbar as compared to pressing the down (or up) keyboard arrow to add accidentals - most especially when applying to a selection of notes.
For instance, selecting a measure of B's and pressing the down arrow honors the "accidental holds to the end of the bar" rule. It also may change the note name spelling (as C becomes B). Using the icon on the toolbar will label each note with an accidental. Note name spellings are unchanged (as C becomes Cb).
This applies to both range and list selections.
down.png

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