Does pedal override rests in piano score?
I'm creating a score for my composition for piano, and I wonder if it is necessary to show the exact duration of each note by using tied notes, instead of using rests to simplify the notation and to make it easier to read. Obviously the pedal overrides rests in the mechanism of the piano, but I wonder if a rest will make the pianist lift the pedal to attain the duration of the note as it appears in the score. Is it safe to rely on the pedal notation to ensure notes have the intended duration, or might the pedal notation be ignored where it appears to conflict with the score?
Comments
Rests imply silence.
In reply to Rests imply silence. by xavierjazz
But then, it is not uncommon to see a succession of eighth notes with the pedal indicated below the staff as depressed. If each note had to be notated exactly as it sounds, then the first eighth note in the measure should be notated as whole note, the second as an eighth note tied to a quarter note tied to a half note, and so on for all 8 eighth notes, creating a mess on the score.
In reply to But then, it is not uncommon… by steven_brown1
Yes. If you apply a pedal any note played is sustained until the pedal is released - just like a real piano. Try it with the attached file.
In reply to But then, it is not uncommon… by steven_brown1
Unless you've made it clear you're doing a kind of "experimental" type of piece, writing a pedal marking under a rest would most make the pianist think you don't know what you are doing.
You don't notate according to how it sounds, you notate according to how long the pianist is supposed to leave his finger down. So a succession of eighth notes is played one at a time. A long note or chord chord is sustained by the hand in addition to the pedal. The idea that you might strike a chord and then use the pedal to alleviate you from needing to leave your hand down is a definite possibility - particular for the sostenuto pedal - but the norm would still be to write out the full duration of the chord, and let the pianist figure out for themselves when to lift the hand.
In general, rests don't make things easier to read, either. But we'd need to see the specific case at hand to say if for reason it would constitute an exception to the norm.
In reply to Unless you've made it clear… by Marc Sabatella
But there is this. A 16th rest appears in the treble staff in measure 4 while the sustain pedal is depressed, and that occurs throughout the piece. In the bass staff, a quarter rest appears in measure 13 while the sustain pedal is depressed, and again throughout the piece.
https://musescore.com/classicman/scores/55375
I realize it has been four years since this post, but the topic still concerns me.
In reply to But there is this. A 16th… by steven_brown1
Yes, the way a piano works, a damper pedal will sustain notes after you release the note, so even through rests. That is true of real pianos as well as MuseScore playback. It was true four years ago and remains true today.
In reply to Yes, the way a piano works,… by Marc Sabatella
I know how the piano works. My question is about music notation.
In reply to I know how the piano works… by steven_brown1
My concern is, is a pianist apt to say "Oh, there's a rest. I must let up on the sustain pedal."
In reply to My concern is, is a pianist… by steven_brown1
To a pianist, the 'pedal down' and 'pedal up' symbols explicitly say to depress or to lift the pedal. Rests within that stretch do not.
In reply to To a pianist, the 'pedal… by TheHutch
Thank you. That is the clarification I sought.
In reply to My concern is, is a pianist… by steven_brown1
As I said four years ago, if you do it in a way that’s makes it look like you simply don’t know what you’re doing, a pianist will attempt to guess, and might let up the pedal or might ignore the rest. So in general, in less you have a specific reason to notate rest, usually it’s better not to. But there could be reasons depending on context.
In the Chopin example, personally I’d have not used those rests. Just too ambiguous. Unless I am familiar with the piece and/or the editor, I’m still going to look at that and wonder if the editor just messed up in adding pedal markings where they shouldn’t have.
In reply to As I said four years ago, if… by Marc Sabatella
I agree that a rest during pedal sustain looks ambiguous, but the attached fragment is typical of a piano score. Each of the four notes is notated as a quarter note, even though the notes on beats 1, 2, and 3 are sustained for the entire measure. If the notation strictly took into account the effect of the sustain pedal, the note on beat 1 would be a whole note, the note on beat 2 a quarter note tied to a half note, the note on beat 3 a half note, and only the note on beat 4 would be a quarter note. To me that implies that note durations on a piano score signify the interval of time until the key is released, not the interval of time the note actually sounds when the sustain pedal is depressed. However, it may be expecting too much of a pianist to go through that logical thought process instantly upon seeing a rest notated during pedal sustain.
In reply to I agree that a rest during… by steven_brown1
You may be overthinking this. In general, you should notate rhythms as if pedal doesn't exist, or doesn't affect duration. If there are special circumstance in a given passage causing you to want to notate something shorter than it really sustains and you believe it will be perfectly clear to the reader that this wasn't a mistake, then go ahead. BVut you should only do so if you have a specific reason. In general, the vast majority of the time, you should notate durations as if the pedal weren't a thing.