2 issues with Volta: both played at the same time + one ignored after DC
Hello,
I've been transcripting the Andersen Op. 30 [1] and have reach two problem with the player. I've simplifyed the problems into the attached file. Being these ones:
1) Second Voltas are played together instead of skipping #2 the first time.
2) First Volta #1 is ignored after the "D.C. al Fine"
I think first might be a limitation of the program, but I'm not so sure after the second one. Could anyone help in any way?
Thanks in advance,
Franz
[1] Joachim Andersen - 24 Studies for Flute - Op. 30, No. 29
http://imslp.org/wiki/24_Etudes_for_Flute%2C_Op.30_(Andersen%2C_Joachim)
Second Edition PDF is of better quality, at page 22 in both editions.
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Volta_Bug.mscz | 6.41 KB |
Comments
It's normal / correct for repeats to be ignored on a DS, so that explains #2. It is true you can include a text instruction for human musicians to overrule the standard interpretation, and they will be able to read it, but MuseScore won't (not in the current version, anyhow - a future version may include such a feature).
First problem is that voltas don't make sense here. Voltas are only correct in the context of a repeat sign, not in the context of of a DS or DC. Instead, you should use a coda.
In reply to It's normal / correct for… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks for your answer.
-#2 Thanks for the tip about it.
-#1 I cannot change the work of a classical music composer (Joachim Andersen) because it might not make "sense" a volta without a repeat sign, 'cause that's how he wrote it . But, it really does make sense.
When you reach the second pair of voltas, you play just #1 (ignoring #2) and the "repeat" ( which is not at the end of the measure) is at the end of the partiture (DC al fine). So, when reaching the second pair of voltas for the second time, that's the cue to ignore #1 and play #2 (the fine).
In reply to Thanks for your answer… by franzrogar
Well, that's how some editor presented it, but that doesn't mean it's how he wrote it. And in any event, unless you are specifically trying to produce an "urtext" edition that faithfully reproduces every notation from his hand (which you can't do starting from a published edition - you'd need the original hand-written manuscript), you should normally correct mistakes and bring notation up to modern standards. So, the best course of action is to use the coda if you want human musicians to read and understand this.
In reply to Well, that's how some editor… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks for the info and reply.
I'll use the coda as suggested, but it'd be really nice to be able to create it as the published edition, as it's also slicker. Depending on how it was coded it might not be too hard to add as new feature for a future release.
In reply to Thanks for the info and… by franzrogar
I think I'll have this case handled as well in the rework I'm currently doing concerning Volta playback. I'll create a minimal test file for it and see how it goes once my refactoring is done.
In reply to I think I'll have this case… by jeetee
Thank you very much (^_^) for thinking about it!
It's really appreciated :-) I've attached you the simplest test for such feature with info about 'expected' playback, so you don't have to waste time creating it (though it doesn't take much time...)
In reply to Thank you very much (^_^)… by franzrogar
I'm sorry, but my new code also can't handle this "as expected". The reason is that a jump 'replays' the last playthrough of a section, never giving it an incentive to process the 2nd volta.
Maybe some time in the future someone can find a smart way to interpret this "as expected" without breaking the interpretation of standard notation convention interpretation; but currently I don't immediately see a clean possibility to do so.
In reply to Thank you very much (^_^)… by franzrogar
Without the bar-repeat sign; Volta has no sense here.
Voltas are alternative finishes and always used with end-(bar)-repeat signs.
They are not used with anything else. (alone, DC, DS etc)
Note: Although some old editions have been used several times (ignorantly), due to the problem of space limitation. But such use is not acceptable.
In reply to Without the bar-repeat sign;… by Ziya Mete Demircan
<< But such use is not acceptable >>
Because you have decided so?
In reply to << But such use is not… by frfancha
Because it is against common and established practise
In reply to Because it is against common… by Jojo-Schmitz
I think there's a translation problem here.
Volta, from Italian voltare (AT THE come back), defines a "section". And as any section, it can be finished properly with a repeat sign (repetition) or a simple double bar ("end of section").
In fact, last Volta has to be marked with simple double bar mark that indicates that that last "section" of Volta type is finished. Current implementation, ignore that.
In reply to I think there's a… by franzrogar
True, the last volta needs to not end with a repeat. But all but the last needs to end with a repeat. This is not a translation issue; it is a matter of standard definition of musical terms. Voltas - by any name - are upposed to be used with repeats. Any book on standard notation practice will say this. Sure, some people here and there will choose to violate this standard rule, and that is their right, but most notation software will not know how to interpret non-standard notations - only standard ones.
In reply to True, the last volta needs… by Marc Sabatella
Caps mine until I figure out how to bold or italic the text...
Again, voltas do not requiere a repeat at all in standard musical theory since 1900s with Hermann Grabner "General Music Theory" [1] where he writes at the end of page 23 (in Spanish translation, but I translate here for you) this: "volta [...] indication that MOST OF THE TIME appear before or after repetition signs [...]".
And, if the "most of the time" doesn't appeal to you, here's [2] the Trinity College rephrasing of Grabner text at the botton of page 4, saying: "The signs 1ma volta (1st time) and 2da volta (2nd time), or simply the figures 1 and 2, are OFTEN USED in conjunction with repeats" with an example of what a Volta is which... doesn't have repetition signs at all.
[1] https://books.google.es/books?id=9DgXMPPiZJYC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=volta…
[2] http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/resource/?id=785
In reply to Caps mine until I figure out… by franzrogar
Grabner is hardly the only or most authoritative source. Check out other texts and you'll find most discuss voltas in conjunction with repeats only.
Again, some may choose to violate this convention, and that is their right, but notation software will generally focus more on the standards than the exceptions. That is particularly true with respect to playback as opposed to notation.
In reply to Grabner is hardly the only… by Marc Sabatella
Gardner and Trinity College ain't the most authoritative sources and, as far as I've read in all books I own, repetition sign is not mandatory in voltas.
So, please, point me to an authoritative source (really, asking, neither pun not sarcasm) to check.
In reply to Gardner and Trinity College… by franzrogar
Do you give the names of those books?
In reply to Do you give the names of… by Ziya Mete Demircan
I'm sorry I can't provide you ATM with such list. I moved two years ago and had to left almost the whole of my personal library: moved from 600 m2 to 60 m2, from almost 5,800 books to 50... and I'm also a woodcarver, origamist, calligrapher illuminator, bibliophile, watercolor/gouache/oil painter, mosaist, sculptor and musician-of-sorts. So, I had to pick just the ones that might apply to various of the objects I create to live (mostly art books) and kept a digital library of public domain books to hide the wound.
My "old" home is 500 km from where I live, so it's not quite a pleasure to drive 1,000 km for a book list. I'll do so next time I go there.
EDIT: one of the public domain text I've already citted here was Hermann Grabner "General Theory of Music", which is more than a century old and it's still in printing nowadays in different translations.
In reply to Gardner and Trinity College… by franzrogar
It's not so much that others explicitly say not to use them anywhere else - it's that's most sources don't say you can use them anywhere else and thus provide no basis for assuming this is valid. Similarly, you won't find an explicit statement that clefs should not appear in between an accidental and the note it applies to - it's more the fact that no one says you can do this that is significant.
In reply to It's not so much that others… by Marc Sabatella
Well, both Grabner and Trinity explicitly say it's not requiered the first voltas to have a repetition sign; they clearly state it's "most of the time used" (written more than a century ago) or "often used in conjunction" with repeats; which directly contradicts saying otherwise (that it's mandatory).
As for your example (clefs where they shouldn't be), I'm sorry but the first book I used to learn music says so... it's a sol-fa method by Hilarión Eslava written in late 1850s. I want to remember he wrote that clefs must be written always at the beginning of a measure, seconded by "measure accidentals" (key signatures), etc. ;-) It's so hard to find something someone hasn't written... :-)
In reply to True, the last volta needs… by Marc Sabatella
On a sidenote, if my PR gets accepted; a volta is no longer required to end on a repeat (or end of section). It supports the classical notation, but can handle some more modern/exotic uses of a volta as well.
The following for example, whilst not 'standard' is unambiguous and will work if my PR is accepted:
![singleSecondVolta.png]( "singleSecondVolta.png")
In reply to On a sidenote, if my PR gets… by jeetee
It might be nice for Musescore to support this type of extra-thing.
However, you should also give a warning that this use is wrong.
In reply to On a sidenote, if my PR gets… by jeetee
That's quite strange... though it can be humanly read. Nevertheless, the weirdest modern "addition" (yours would be toying with classical notation) to me would be "DC ad Nauseam" (to head until you feel disgust) with volta for odd (2n-1) and even (2n) repetitions... for example:
![ad-nauseam.png]( "ad-nauseam.png")
...