Instruments - vocals - tenor
When selecting instruments - vocals - tenor, how do I avoid 8vb coming up?
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When selecting instruments - vocals - tenor, how do I avoid 8vb coming up?
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You don't. It will come up. You can replace it be a normal G-Clef after that, but then would need to make sure the staff transposes by an octave.
If you want your Tenors to sing an octave higher, you need to get physical :-)
In reply to You don't. It will come up… by Jojo-Schmitz
Let me answer less jocularly. Music specifically for tenor (i.e., not "high voice" in general) is today written with the 8vb treble clef. The tenor range is roughly from C3 to A4, and that is the correct modern clef (the old tenor C clef is useful, too, but no longer used). An educated/trained tenor would expect to see the 8vb marking, or in slightly older style, double-treble clef. If you know this already, I apolgize.
In reply to Let me answer less jocularly… by [DELETED] 1831606
And "Tenor (C Clef)" is available too as of newest
In reply to Let me answer less jocularly… by [DELETED] 1831606
Thank you, and no need to apologize. I am not an educated/trained tenor, so much of this is too technical for me. I am in a (very) amateur (but, good) choir. All the sheet music for SATB that we have used does not have the 8vb treble clef, so I am surprised to read that music specifically for tenor is today written in it. I am trying to produce something in a format that we are familiar with.
In reply to Thank you, and no need to… by ShevSmith
Tenors sing an octave lower than Soprano/Alto, that's that that clef tries to get accross, and that is why the vast majority of published SATB scores use that Treble 8vb clef
Another option to avoid it altogether is to use the Closed Score format, Sopranon on top stave, Treble clef, Voice 1 and 2, Tenor and Bass in bottom staff, bass clef, voice 1 and 2. But indeed esp. the Tenors tend to not like the bass clef too much... I've not seen a Tenor that complaing about the Treble 8vb one though
In reply to Let me answer less jocularly… by [DELETED] 1831606
BTW: that double treble clef is also possible, et least with MuseScore 3.0. And is is the same as treble 8vb pitch wise, an octave below the regular treble clef
In reply to You don't. It will come up… by Jojo-Schmitz
Thank you. What is the procedure for replacing it with a normal G-Clef?
In reply to Thank you. What is the… by ShevSmith
So you still want to do it? The see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/clefs
And also see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/staff-properties to transpose an octave!
In reply to So you still want to do it?… by Jojo-Schmitz
Wow! that was easy. Thanks. I did try to look it up in the online manual before, but obviously didn't think of the correct search term. Thanks, again.
In reply to Thank you. What is the… by ShevSmith
Once you get the tenor transposed the way you want it, you can save a score in the user templates folder and use it as a template so you don't have to transpose future scores. See https://musescore.org/en/handbook/create-new-score#user-templates-folder
In reply to Once you get the tenor… by mike320
Thanks.
If this is really "technical" and unfamiliar to you, I urge you even more strongly to follow the advice that JoJo, I, and the MuseScore app itself are offering you. If someone says, "Hey, what's that funny 8 under the clef!!?!?!", enlighten them correspondingly. Tenors sing an octave lower than sopranos.
In reply to If this is really "technical… by [DELETED] 1831606
Boy, do I feel ignorant. I've looked back at the sheet music we've been using and just noticed the funny 8 under the clef. Thanks.
In reply to Boy, do I feel ignorant. I… by ShevSmith
Whew! I was afraid I was really overstepping the bounds of politeness trying to persuade you not to do what you really wanted to do, but my intransigence ultimately led you to the right place! How relieved I am!
Just to add more complication to the matter, the conventions are not entirely consistent on the matter of scoring for tenors. I just checked my wife's folder for her current orchestral season, and found three formats, though I know there are others.
Older classical/baroque scores tend to use the 8vb clef for the tenor part. Also used, but not in my wife's current season, is the tenor C clef.
More modern choral or Broadway scores tend to use either the bass clef, as with the basses, or a normal treble clef, in which case it is assumed that the tenors sing one octave below the written pitch. This appears to be quite common, and it is never a problem in rehearsal or performance. Singers automatically know to make this adjustment. Computers, on the other hand, need to be told explicitly that this is the case.
I hope this does not cause further confusion. If you are writing for trained singers, any of the above conventions are acceptable. You simply need to make appropriate adjustments if you want consistent playback from Musescore.
Regards,
Tom
In reply to Just to add more… by toffle
Some of this I dispute. No modern scores (20th century or now) use vocal C clefs, although they were still current in Brahms' time (late 19th ct). Modern classical scores use the 8va bassa tenor clef; I have never seen one that does not (I have sung in choruses and choirs and have been working with music for decades). I have seen goofy variants of it (double treble, treble with little c-clef-like graphic focused on C4, etc.), but not unaltered treble, in some earlier 20th ct scores. I can't speak about Broadway scores.
In reply to Some of this I dispute. No… by [DELETED] 1831606
I agree that modern scores do not use the C tenor clef. If you took that from my post, I apologize, as I meant that it only applied to older scores.
I respectfully disagree with part of your comment, but I was careful to stress that there are different conventions in use. Your library may indeed have many examples that prove me wrong. I defer to my wife's experience in choral matters, or to her scores when they are available.
The Brahms Requiem, for example, uses an unaltered treble clef, as does the Poulenc Gloria. The Faure Requiem uses both bass clef and 8vb treble. As I mentioned, the "modern" scores in my wife's current season tend to use either the bass clef or the unaltered treble. (Granted, by "this season" I mean Christmas Pops performances with orchestra, hardly a representative selection of modern choral music.)
Again, I have no thought of argument here. I have no horse in this race. Considering how tenors are often maligned in the milieu, I think it is much to their credit that they read what they are given without complaint.
Tom
In reply to I agree that modern scores… by toffle
The first edition of the Brahms Requiem used C clefs, as I said: You can check it out yourself here: http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/files/imglnks/usimg/1/18/IMSLP23011-…
It is well possible that you or your wife have some modern edition that isn't careful enough to use an accurate tenor clef. Modern editions of old works, even the renowned Neue Bach Ausgabe, are free to modernize clefs, but scholarly, careful editions such as the NBA I just mentioned used the "8va bassa treble" tenor clef. Perhaps a careful inspection of your wife's score, as with the original poster here, will reveal a "little 8 below the clef."
In reply to The first edition of the… by [DELETED] 1831606
ok
In reply to I agree that modern scores… by toffle
In my experience Tenors indeed don't care about that little 8 below the Treble Clef, but do complain on Bass Clef. Fortunatly on that account (and for closed scores) I got backing by the choir leader, so those complaints stopped ;-)
In reply to In my experience Tenors… by Jojo-Schmitz
In reply to Do you mean "don't care… by [DELETED] 1831606
.
The situation IS further complicated by music which is intended for "high voice" or "low voice", i.e., sopranos and tenors in the first set and altos and basses in the second. This would include virtually the entire Lieder repertoire, sung to renown by men and women of all voice parts. Publishers usually offer two corresponding editions of such works, transposed a fifth apart, and always with a nonspecific treble clef for the voice.
In reply to The situation IS further… by [DELETED] 1831606
For which the Treble clef optional 8vb exists. that like 8 below the clef but in parens
In reply to For which the Treble clef… by Jojo-Schmitz
aha! Never met it! Must be in the Advanced Palette, but can't get there from here... : ( (actually, after restarted after crashing, it comes up in the new workspace).
In reply to aha! Never met it! by [DELETED] 1831606
Yep, in the Advanced workspace's clef palette
Well, I'm amused that my simple question triggered such an esoteric discussion (I hope that word is less contentious than "technical"). Having understood the principle, I am still left with a problem. I copied (as in ctrl C) the tenor line from another script that had a normal G clef to the SATB script with the 8vb clef. Understandably, it placed each note an octave too high on the staff. So, as suggested, I used Stave Properties to transpose it and, while it then placed the notes in the correct position, the audio playback pitched the notes at the original level, i.e. an octave too high. Can I alter the audio pitch without affecting the script and without having to re-enter note by note. I realise this question is probably as naive as the original one, but I haven't been able to find the answer in the manual. Thanks.
In reply to Well, I'm amused that my… by ShevSmith
Revert that staff properties transpose, select all the notes in that staff and do a Ctrl+Down
In reply to Well, I'm amused that my… by ShevSmith
Is the question "how do I get them all an octave higher/lower than I entered them"? That's easy. Select the entire staff by clicking the first measure, not on a note (a blue box should appear), then, holding the shift key, do the same on the last measure. A blue box should encompass the staff from first to last measure. Then use ctrl-uparrow or ctrl-downarrow to shift the notes an octave (Command- if you're on a Mac). Shift (not control) to move stepwise. (Warning -- after clicking the first measure, you have to get to the last measure without clicking on anything else in the process of getting there! This is tricky!)
In reply to Is the question "how do I… by [DELETED] 1831606
Many thanks to both of you.
In reply to Many thanks to both of you. by ShevSmith
Aw, thanks! The general tenor of the conversation has been high, one might say... MuseScore is a joy to use once you get good at it, but that path is all too difficult, partly documentation's fault, but also the fault of a new world in which the need for documentation is considered evidence of design flaws.
In reply to Aw, thanks! The general… by [DELETED] 1831606
;-)