Confusion as to x/y axis
Perhaps it's just me but I am having difficulty with changing positions of elements. I can't seem to see a consistent behaviour when I try to adjust an elements position.
e.g. Signo, volta.
Explicit up/down, left/right directions would be VERY helpful to me.
Comments
I guess maybe you are talking about the Inspector, and the fact that with regard to vertical offset, negative numbers move an element up? This is indeed a common point of confusion, and some thought has been given to how to improve it. It's especially awkward in that when using keyboard shortcuts, "up" makes a number bigger, but this has the effect of moving the element *down*.
So if that's what you mean, it's a known issue, although not one with a clear cut solution. If you mean something else, could you explain in more detail?
In reply to I guess maybe you are talking by Marc Sabatella
No, that's it, although I don't get there through inspector (yet?).
I go to styles and get completely messed up as I use MS in bursts and never remember when I get back to it.
Perhaps 4 boxes instead of 2, marked up/down - L/R?
I have spent much time trying to deal with this.
Best regards,
In reply to No, that's it, although I by xavierjazz
OK, so you're talking about the text style dialog instead of the Inspector, but it sounds like the same basic issue - the "up" button on your keyboard, when used to change the number in the "vertical" box, has the effect of moving elements *down*. So yes, if we do something about how this info is presented, it would need to be done both places. Text properties, too.
In reply to OK, so you're talking about by Marc Sabatella
Same issue.
In reply to OK, so you're talking about by Marc Sabatella
The simple solution is to make the negative for the vertical go down and positive go up. It would be a simple fix for the display to show -Offset.vertical or whatever the variable is. The effect of the arrows would need to be reversed as well I guess. Changing only the display should make all other calculations the same.
In reply to The simple solution is to by mike320
There you are.
The problem I see with that is still the use of "axis" as the concept.
If it is changed, then anyone who is intimately familiar with how axises work will be confounded by an attempt to make it easier for those like me.
Up/down - L/R still seems to me to be the most obvious solution.
Perhaps axis could be renamed to "position"?
In reply to There you are. The problem I by xavierjazz
I'm confused, I don't see the word "axis" anywhere. Or "x", or "y". Just "vertical" and "horizontal", which are the standard correct terms. Up/down don't make sense as labels for the fields themselves, because they are not *directions*, but *values*. That is, the value of "2.5" is neither up nor down, it just is what it is. The things that could conceivably labelled up or down are the buttons for *changing* those values, but realistically, those buttons are the only or probably even most common method of changing the values - you can also simply type into them. So the values need to remain, and the labeling of the fields themselves needs to remain clear. it's really just about the buttons for changing the values.
In reply to I'm confused, I don't see the by Marc Sabatella
I took x and y to be references to axis. Saw it in my mind. :)
The one that is confusing to me is the vertical change where negative means up and it is the buttons I am talking about. I've already made my suggestions for labeling.
In reply to I took x and y to be by xavierjazz
The one that is confusing to me is the vertical change where negative means up
Bingo!
I'm surprised that I have never seen this mentioned before in the forum. I've always considered it a MuseScore peculiarity - so, not worth the time to try and compile my own 'fixed' version.
Those of us familiar with Geometry, specifically Cartesian coordinates, were taught that moving up on the vertical axis resulted in increasing values - e.g. like the altimeter on an aircraft. Hence, vertical displacement of score elements upwards on the MuseScore page would (intuitively, for me) require increasing the number values. This is not the case.
So... whenever I use MuseScore and attempt a vertical adjustment of a score element, I visualize a double bass (or cello) where sliding a finger upwards on a string results in descending pitch... after all, this is *music* software... :-)
On the other hand, horizontal displacement in MuseScore does behave intuitively - both according to Cartesian values increasing rightward; and also, for instance, as on the piano keyboard - with pitches increasing rightward.
Regards.
In reply to The one that is confusing to by Jm6stringer
It's come up quite a few times. So far lots of agreement that it is awkward, less agreement on exactly what the solution would look like exactly.`
In reply to It's come up quite a few by Marc Sabatella
For my part, I completely solved this question. I no longer type the values (I can eventually edit them for very fine values), nor uses the up and down buttons, disturbing for me as well!
How? Simply after reading a tip from Lasconic (a few months ago on this forum, I can not find this thread again).
How you can see it: the boxes become active by hovering over it with the mouse.
At this moment, just move the mouse wheel forward to increase the values (exactly the same manner as you would to increase the page's zoom value, with Ctrl key), and so mouse wheel reaward for decrease the values.
This trick changed my life! (well, the life using MuseScore) :)
In reply to It's come up quite a few by Marc Sabatella
Simple reverse the meanings of negative and positive for vertical offset. (Definitely not before 3.0!)
In reply to Simple reverse the meanings by Isaac Weiss
Yes. That would be more intuitive to me. Saves messing with the rest of it.
In reply to Simple reverse the meanings by Isaac Weiss
FWIW, reversing the meaning of negative and positive for this field would actually be possible without introducing any incompatible changes. We could still store the value as we always do, but simply flip it for the sake of the GUI. However, given that people are accustomed to how it works now, I think introducing such a change before 3.0 would be a mistake anyhow.
In reply to FWIW, reversing the meaning by Marc Sabatella
And even after that it would annoy all those who got used to this over the years...
In reply to And even after that it would by Jojo-Schmitz
Which is one reason I kind of prefer encouraging other creative solutions to the problem.
In reply to And even after that it would by Jojo-Schmitz
It's either worth doing or not. If it is, sooner is better as Jojo's comment makes clear.
My own confusion is now cleared up so I won't need the change but .............. (see my sentence above)
In reply to It's either worth doing or by xavierjazz
IMHO it is not worth doing
In reply to IMHO it is not worth doing by Jojo-Schmitz
IMHO it is. The people who adjusted to the current behavior, such as myself, could just as quickly readjust, and it would definitely match better with most people's preconceived understanding of a Cartesian plane.
In reply to IMHO it is. The people who by Isaac Weiss
Not if you accept that 0/0 is in the upper left corner of the sheet and not in the bottom left corner
In reply to Not if you accept that 0/0 is by Jojo-Schmitz
That doesn't make sense. (0, 0) is any point you choose. Even currently in MuseScore 2.
In reply to That doesn't make sense. (0, by Isaac Weiss
Well, I think for new users, it would definitely make a difference.
I think in general, a negative number is seen as "to the left" and "down".
In reply to Well, I think for new users, by xavierjazz
As said, it would make sense if we were in Q1 of a carthesian system, but we are in Q4.
In reply to As said, it would make sense by Jojo-Schmitz
What does that mean?
In reply to As said, it would make sense by Jojo-Schmitz
The default location of any element is (0, 0), no matter what direction things go from there, right?
In reply to The default location of any by Isaac Weiss
I agree.
My question is directed to which quarter we are in, Q1 or Q4?
My guess is Jojo is making a distinction as to which quarter of the plot (+) we are in. I have no idea why we would assume that we are in Q4. Has that distinction been made explicit for those of us who are not as intimately involved?
Anyway, ........
In reply to I agree. My question is by xavierjazz
I don't think we're in any quadrant—we're at the origin. Then from there we may move the selected element into any quadrant relative to its default starting point.
In reply to I don't think we're in any by Isaac Weiss
Yes.
In reply to Yes. by xavierjazz
I don't think for most users it would make much difference.
For an user with mathematics background maybe it would make sense that vertical up are positive and vertical down are negative values.
On the other hand: For an user with a graphic background it could be confusing (and maybe the one or other will wonder). Most of these applications (I'm know) are using 0,0 in the top left of a page and there are vertical down values positive values (pixel coordinates). The once application, I'm know, where 0,0 is bottom left an vertical up is positive is Inkscape.
So in my opinion if vertical up values are negative will confuse some users equally other when vertical up values are positive.
But I believe most of the users are neither graphic artists nor mathematicians ;-).
Note: So for me a solution with more clearness (but also with more work, is it's worth?) could be (I hope I'm using the right terms):
- two spinboxes for positive values
- beside the spinbox for horizontal a popup button (left - center - right)
- beside the spinbox for vertical a popup button (up - center - down)
In reply to I agree. My question is by xavierjazz
It's quite common in graphical software though (and in screen coordinates) to have the top-left be (0, 0).
For those on windows, open MSPaint for example and check your cursor position in the status bar. Or if you have a multiple-monitor setup, see the coordinates used in the screen-resolution setup dialog.
Or for those in desktop publishing; open up Scribus, top-left of each page is the origin.
Or for those using a web browser and CSS; top-left is (0, 0) as well.
So it really is quite normal the way MuseScore does it. Although I get the confusion, because cartesian mathematics, I would also try to look for other ways of conveying this.
In reply to It's quite common in by jeetee
Well, mathematicians and scientist have had their 0,0 bottom left long before graphic software was in existence. It would be fair to ask those programmers what they were thinking...
In reply to Well, I think for new users, by xavierjazz
for me, negative is: left and up (graphical, not musical)
In reply to IMHO it is. The people who by Isaac Weiss
I agree. I have been using Musescore for quite some time and I am by no means used to this anomaly. I am probably not the only one. It makes little sense to accommodate people who can't get used to it anyhow.
In reply to I agree. I have been using by azumbrunn
MuseScore uses a standard XY axis, but only uses the bottom right quarter for display as seen in the blue square
![xy axes.png]( "xy axes.png")
I don't really like it because it is counter intuitive when pressing up arrows and things move down, but someone come up with a better way of making the arrows in the dialogs work the way you want them to.
I suggested have all of the up arrow move up and display a positive number and the down arrow move down and display a negative number. Perhaps a better alternative is to have the text on the labels change if you press the up arrow then change the word Vertical to up and on the horizontal have the left arrow say left when it is pressed. All of these are in relationship to the starting location of the element. Of course if the value returns to zero the appropriate horzontal or vertical would be displayed.
In reply to FWIW, reversing the meaning by Marc Sabatella
Arrgh, we missed our chance to fix this in 3.0. But now the situation is exacerbated—we're actually labeling them "X and "Y"!
In reply to Arrgh, we missed our chance… by Isaac Weiss
I agree! If the Y-values change, the movement is still mathematically strange. At the X-values the objects move as expected. Unfortunately you need the inspector to move some objects, otherwise you would notice it less.
(I just had to reply to catapult the topic back into consciousness ;-) )
Another confused person. https://musescore.org/en/node/181826
The Inspector UI issue discussed here still exists. And this thread is pretty old.
There's a simple solution here.
Doesn't need to force a change for everyone. Could simply be a preference option, one that I'd surely use!