Guitar is a transposing instrument!

• Nov 12, 2019 - 22:56

Hi, an hour ago I reported a bug where I point out that the guitar and bass guitar are not been transposed by musescore. My report has been deleted and got the following e-mail:

"Guitar is not a(n octave) transposing instrument, it is notated using the G Clef 8va bassa. Bass Guitar is octave transposong though, notated with the standard bass clef, but sounding an octave lower"

Well, I've been a guitarist for 25 years and this is news to me. The guitar, is notated an octave higher to avoid using the bass clef. All professional guitar sheet music is notated this way and they reiterate this in almost every guitar method I've read through the years. Any guitarist knows this.

Can any body please provide some proof to the message from the musescore staff?

Comments

• Nov 13, 2019 - 01:16

Actually, the Musescore staff have it spot on. Guitar notation is traditionally written using the 8vb G clef - it looks like a G clef with a little 8 hanging off the bottom of it. That, in effect, means that the guitar isn't a transposing instrument at all.

However, in reality, guitar (especially in pop/rock music publications and beginner books) is frequently notated with a regular treble clef and in that instance, yes, the guitar would be considered to be a transposing instrument. Writing guitar this way is not the traditional way of doing it, however it has certainly grown in popularity over the last few decades.

In any case, you can manually set clefs and transposition in musescore, so it isn't really a problem

Reply

• Nov 14, 2019 - 18:42

"Guitar notation is traditionally written using the 8vb G clef"

Could you please point out a traditional guitar score notated with the 8vb G clef? I've never seen one.

"However, in reality, guitar (especially in pop/rock music publications and beginner books) is frequently notated with a regular treble clef"

I have seen the use of the regular treble clef for guitar in all genres of music and all levels of guitar and bass teaching books. I will be glad to see a score where the guitar is notated using the 8va bassa clef (a score that has not been created with Musescore, that is).

I'm going to quote a few paragraphs from the wikipedia page on transposing instruments:

"A transposing instrument is a musical instrument whose music is recorded in staff notation at a pitch different from the pitch that actually sounds (concert pitch)"

But it also states:

"Instruments that "transpose at the octave" are not playing in a different key from concert pitch instruments, but sound an octave higher or lower than written."

This last quote may explain why it was decided not to move the notes on guitar and bass when the concert pitch button is enabled.

Continues:
"Music for the double bass is written an octave higher than it sounds. Thus, when cellos and basses are reading exactly the same part (a common practice by composers from the early Classical period), the basses' line is an octave below the cellos'. "

The double bass, like the guitar, is written an octave higher, but I never seen the use of the 8va bassa clef used in classical orchestral scores to notate the double bass. The Piccolo flute, is written an octave lower and doesn't use 8va bassa written on top of its clef. All these transpositions are assume by the player of those instruments, no need to be explicit.

My guess is that, the creators of the templates in musescore decided to use the 8va bassa in those instruments to make it clear that those instruments are already using transposition to prevent confusion. But confusion is what it's brought me. Specially when using the Jazz Combo; entering notes for the different instruments, see the guitar using the 8va bassa, but not used by the bass guitar (when they are in the same situation), then hitting the Concert Pitch button and see the 8va bassa show for the bass guitar while the guitar clef remains unaffected.

Fourtunatly, as you have suggested, that can be manually set. But it took all these posts to find out what was going on.

Someone on the other thread related to this one mentioned the following:

"In earlier iterations of MuseScore, before the "little 8" was added, the guitar was shown as transposed in Staff Properties - as the bass guitar currently shows. There was much discussion when the change from regular treble to ottava clef occurred. The "little 8" was deemed the more modern convention."

And yet, I had never seen this practice until I was introduced to Musescore.

Reply

• Nov 14, 2019 - 21:47

The creator of that thread is referring to "classic guitar" notation.

Someone also says:

"in my opinion classical guitar has always to be written in treble clef with 8va bassa like nowadays all over europe .
if treble clef without 8va is used it should really sound as written.
Wolfgang"

On this thread https://musescore.org/en/node/38581#comment-368706, some points out that the standard notation began to be adopted by the classic guitar around 1758. IMO, this is the reason why they started using the 8 below the clef. This was a new way to notate for guitar and people had to be reminded that the notes should be played an octave lower, hence the 8.

By the time the electric guitar was invented, and through the advent of jazz and derived genres, this fact was well known by guitarist.

The way I see it is that, the 8 was a reminder that served its purposed when standard notation was first adopted for guitar. Once guitar players got familiar with this concept, the 8 was dropped. Just as it probably happened with the other transposing instruments for orchestra (the ones that transpose an octave).

In that same thread, someone listed a few publishers that used that 8. Some of which may not be in existence any longer. And lets not forget that they're talking about "classic guitar". This is not used in other genres after Jazz.

The comments of the thread end with the following quote:

"Thanks - I would not have found those!"

Exactly, it's rare to find those.

I did a quick search for "classic guitar sheet music" on my search engine and indeed, some of those 8s showed up in the images, but that's a small minority compare to the rest. I did the same for "guitar sheet music" and got even less results, and I'd bet those that showed up, are those popular old pieces for classic guitar.

What I would do, is to leave the classic guitar template in musescore the way it is and change the clef on the rest of the templates. That way, classic guitarist wouldn't be surprised, and modern guitarists wouldn't be confused.

But I'm not trying to push this change since I can fix that to fit my workflow. But I can say with certainty that this practice is no longer used, and wouldn't be surprise if classic guitar players have stop using it for writing that type of music these days.

I studied in a contemporary music school in England, and I never saw that 8. It was always asumed that guitar and bass guitar were written an octave higher. I also have many books on guitar and bass guitar for different styles (except classical). However, I would like to hear from people studing in the conservatory of music.

But all this has lead me to another guitar topic I would like to address in another thread.
It has been discussed more than once, for a long time, and no progress has been made, perhaps for the lack of consensus. I am referring to the way guitar bends have been implemented, not in the tablature (which is not fully ready to support modern techniques yet), but on the standard notation.

Reply

• Nov 14, 2019 - 21:55

"But I can say with certainty that this practice is no longer used, and wouldn't be surprise if classic guitar players have stop using it for writing that type of music these days.
I studied in a contemporary music school in England, and I never saw that 8. It was always asumed that guitar and bass guitar were written an octave higher. I also have many books on guitar and bass guitar for different styles (except classical). However, I would like to hear from people studing in the conservatory of music."

Unfortunately, you are seriously mistaken. Have you read the few examples of scores and publishers displaying this 8. You say you have experience in this area. I tell you that this is my job, I am a qualified classical guitar teacher and former concert performer, and claiming that the two ways / two clefs the guitar does not exist, even nowadays, simply shows a lack of culture of our instrument (and I talk of course about classical guitar)

Reply

• Nov 14, 2019 - 22:41

Classical guitar is not my area of expertise, that's what I said "wouldn't be surprise if classic guitar players have stop using it for writing that type of music these days." and "However I would like to hear from people studying in the conservatory of music."
And "I also have many books on guitar and bass guitar for different styles (except classical)"

This is the same reason why I had never seen that 8 before. I am speaking for the other styles. I thought I had made that clear.

Reply

• Nov 14, 2019 - 23:05

By reading back that thread I linked in my post, I noticed that it was you who reply to the author who was making the same argument.

"In "Behind Bars", Elaine Gould write the two clefs can be used, p.373."

I assume that's because classical guitarist are still using the 8va bassa clef, while the rest are using the regular one.

Reply

• Nov 14, 2019 - 23:23

As I said, there are quite a few publications (across all styles of music) made with Finale that use this. IUt's the easiest way to get what most composers want but you apparently don't: the transposed and concert views to both show the guitar up the octave. Most composers and arrangers don't want to see the ledger lines that would be required for a true concert pitch representation. Sibelius has a special mode, "concert pitch except for octave transposition", but both Finale and MuseScore use octave clefs for this instead.

Anyhow, at this point the discussion seems moot. Everyone recognizes both styles exist and are valid, even if one of them might be more common in our particular corner of the world. And we all hopefully see how MuseScore supports both styles. I don't see the point of continuing to obsess about which particular corners of the world tend to use which style.

Reply

• Nov 14, 2019 - 22:49

I put the wrong quote here:

"in my opinion classical guitar has always to be written in treble clef with 8va bassa like nowadays all over europe .
if treble clef without 8va is used it should really sound as written.
Wolfgang"

I meant this quote:

"The main problem is that the vast majority of historical music for guitar is written using the normal treble clef and never has been there the slightest confusion as to what sounds the guitar is playing. Any musician with some knowledge of the guitar knows it is a transposing instrument as is the clarinet or the double bass, so there is no need to introduce a double standard."

And it goes on. By the way, I assume the author of that thread is a classical guitarist, and find amusing that we are saying the same thing.

Reply

• Nov 14, 2019 - 19:09

I'm in agreement with you Reimans, but in actuality I have seen some late 19th or early 20th century guitar scores (not new transcriptions) that use the 8vb treble clef, though they are far from the majority. As a rule I don't look for guitar scores though.

On modern scores the 8vb clef is far more common even from the pre-computer on every desk era of the 60's & 70's. In Bass guitar, I'm not aware of any music being written for the 8vb bass clef before the PC era.

When I first started using MuseScore (version 2.0.3) ottava clefs were used for all guitars, piccolos, glockenspiels, and basses. I've pushed to get the standard clefs used everywhere possible, but there are people who insist the ottava clef is the standard for guitar so the templates still have this clef. As I previously mentioned, I did convince them to create a Guitar (Treble clef). You can create your own templates using this instrument and always add it if you don't use a template.

Reply

Do you still have an unanswered question? Please log in first to post your question.