Hairpin not working across tied notes
I have a note that is tied across four measures, with a diminuendo hairpin, going from mp to ppp.
During playback, the notes stay at mp volume, and do not decrease in volume.
Am I missing something?
David D.
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That should work, using the right sound from the right soundfont and the right synthesizer settings (right here means default), if if doesn't for you, please share thw score
In reply to That should work, using the… by Jojo-Schmitz
Attached is the .mscz score. Measures 9 thru 12 is the first example of the problem. The mp volume is held across all four measures. You can prove that the terminating ppp is indeed working, simply by deleting the mf in Measure 13, which then lowers the following passage to a whisper.
Note that this piece is not quite ready for me to publish on MuseScore, because I am still developing dynamics and modifying chords. I will upload it as soon as I am done.
I am using:
OS: Windows 10 (10.0), Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore version (64-bit): 3.0.5.5992, revision: 58dd23d.
I am using the default sound font and default synthesizer settings.
Thanks in advance, Jojo, for your help with the hairpin problem.
Regards,
David D.
In reply to Attached is the .mscz score… by dddiam
Hi David,
As far as I know, single-note dynamics (and proper hairpin playback for tied notes) was implemented starting MuseScore 3.1 (https://musescore.org/en/3.1) so if you can install a newer release, you will get that funcionality, missing in MuseScore 3.0.5
In reply to Attached is the .mscz score… by dddiam
Yes, you need to upgrade, go straight to 3.3.4
In reply to Yes, you need to upgrade, go… by Jojo-Schmitz
Thank you Jojo and Dilon. It works fine now, in 3.3.4.
I was reading up on SND in the manual. It looks very versatile, but not as simplistic as I would have hoped. I was hoping for a single swell articulation symbol, optionally with a fixed dynamic level symbol (e.g. ff) in the middle of it. However, I will try to understand the current implementation, which I am sure took you many weeks of cogitation to develop. Thank you.
I am using the extra voice of rests approach, and it is working fine for me, after adjusting the initial hairpin length.
I split the extra voice into two half-rests, assign the first rest to pp and the second rest to f, followed by a pp on the rest in the subsequent measure.
I then click on the first half-rest and select a crescendo hairpin. Instead of its extending only to the next half-rest, it extends to the end of the measure. I then do a diminuendo hairpin for the second rest, and that one displays as expected.
On playback, before the hairpin length adjustment, of course it does not work correctly.
I then adjust the length of the crescendo hairpin, using shift-leftarrow, and it works perfectly.
But I do not understand why the crescendo hairpin is so long initially, before you adjust it.
Also, notice the placement of the fixed dynamic symbols relative to the hairpins. In the first swell example, the rests are Voice 1, and the melody is Voice 4. In the second swell example, the rests are Voice 4 and the melody is Voice 1. It would make sense musically for the melody to be Voice 1 throughout the piece, but I need to flip it for the swells in order to get the dynamics displacements to line up with each other.
Regards,
David D.
In reply to Thank you Jojo and Dilon. … by dddiam
The normal way to apply a hairpin or other line is to first select the range you want to apply it to, then double-click the icon or use the shortcut (eg, "<" for crescendo). Then MuseScore knows exactly how long you want it. If you use drag and drop, then MuseScor has to guess, and it guesses "until the end of the measure".
For the specific case of a swell - so the crescendo doesn't even take the full duration of a single note, there may be no easy way to select the range first, so you may still have to resort to workarounds in those cases. But for the majority of hairpins, the method I described works great with no adjustment required.
In reply to The normal way to apply a… by Marc Sabatella
I understand why you implemented dynamics the way that you did. They are extremely versatile and customizable. Quite sophisticated.
I was impressed when I stumbled over the hairpin dynamic method dropdown list, but now I cannot find it again. Is there anything special that I have to do to get that dropdown list?
David D.
(I am using: OS: Windows 10 (10.0), Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore version (64-bit): 3.3.4.9066, revision: 7684abe).
In reply to I understand why you… by dddiam
Just select a hairpin and look at the Inspector, where most element properties are controlled.
In reply to Just select a hairpin and… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks, Mark. I found it in the Inspector.
I had thought that I had seen it pop up on the Pallet, complete with little envelope curve shapes, but perhaps I remembered wrong.
Also, I see a Pallet choice for "Dynamic+hairpin". What is that for? It appears in the inspector that the mf is only text.
David D.
In reply to Thanks, Mark. I found it… by dddiam
The palettes have never had anything but simple icons for adding elements to your score.
Dynamics + hairpin is a convenient way of attaching a dynamic to the end of a hairpin when there is no specific note to attach it to. I guess by "only text", you mean it isn't currently honored by the the playback, but that's not the main point of MuseScore to begin with.
In reply to The palettes have never had… by Marc Sabatella
Thank you for clarifying these new features. I love them.
I puzzle over why anyone would purchase one of the two cost-prohibitive, commercial music score editors, when MuseScore is not only affordable (even a free version), but IMO superior. MuseScore aggressively develops new, valuable features, provides frequent releases (plus nightlies), and responds quickly to users' questions, problems, feature requests and suggestions. MuseScore involves user input and discussion in determining the next priority and form of features and fixes. Additionally, MuseScore provides a vehicle for users to share their arrangements and compositions.
Hats off and great appreciation to the MuseScore development and support team, which includes both MuseScore staff and active community participants.
Thank you!
David D.
In reply to Thank you for clarifying… by dddiam
when MuseScore is not only affordable (even a free version),
There is only a free version. You should never have to pay for the desktop notation software.
In reply to when MuseScore is not only… by jeetee
I was alluding to the additional MuseScore Pro features.
In reply to I was alluding to the… by dddiam
Yes, but as Jeetee said, there NO pro features in the desktop software. The desktop software is completely FREE and only free.
The pro features concern the sharing platform and the mobile app used in link with that sharing platform. Perhaps it was already perfectly clear for you, then sorry for having insisted, but that's to avoid confusion by future readers of this thread.
In reply to That should work, using the… by Jojo-Schmitz
Friends, I'm having the same playback problem with a hairpin. Musescore 3.6.2, on Ubuntu 20.04. Default soundfont is Musescore_General.sf3 (I downloaded the current one available from this website.) The synth settings are correct. Just no diminuendo on playback. I've tried different bowed instruments as well with the same results. Dynamics work as expected on untied individual notes. Thanks for any help
George
In reply to Friends, I'm having the same… by George Khouri
Confirmed. Can't explain though, the instrument is set up to use single note dynamics and is using an "expr." sound, so this should work
In reply to Confirmed. Can't explain… by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks for checking it out. I notice in Linux that the default /usr/share/mscore3-3.2/sound/sf3/MuseScore_General.sf3 is a link to /etc/alternatives/MuseScore_General.sf3 which is a link eventually pointing to /usr/share/sounds/sf3//MuseScore_General_Lite.sf3. Could it be an issue with MuseScore_General_Lite.sf3? Tonight I installed MuseScore_General.sf3 from this website to my ~/Documents/MuseScore3/SoundFonts folder which Preferences defaults to, and set it in the synthesizer but no different behavior in playback. Is anyone using Linux able get a dynamics change during playback across tied notes? Is it an issue with 3.6.2x? I also tried it with MScore 3.2.3 but it behaved the same.
thx
In reply to Thanks for checking it out… by George Khouri
I have the issue with MuseScore 3.6.2 on Windows 10, and with the HQ soundfont.
I don't think you'd want the lite soundfont, that may not have the expr. sounds at all?
3.2.3 doesn't have the single note dynamcs feature IIRC
Edit: wrong, SND is in MuseScore since 3.1
In reply to Thanks for checking it out… by George Khouri
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In reply to Thanks for checking it out… by George Khouri
Your hairpin extends to the end of the last note,
The piano dynamic applies from the start of the last note. The hairpin never "sees" the dynamic, it just passes it by. If you move the end point of the hairpin to the start of the last note it works as expected but the last note is p throughout without diminuendoing. Like this:
test_hairpin1.mscz
If you want the diminuendo to extend through the last note you would need to either
a) add a measure and put the dynamic in the next measure or
b) use a second voice to allow you to end the hairpin and position the dynamic as close as you like to the end of the note - like this
test_hairpin 2.mscz
In reply to Your hairpin extends to the… by SteveBlower
Ah, that make sense, sort of. Might still be a bug, as the intention is pretty clear
In reply to Ah, that make sense, sort of… by Jojo-Schmitz
Not a bug. If I saw the original I would finish the diminuendo before the last tied note and that is what MuseScore does. If the diminuendo has to extend through the final note it should be indicated that way with the hairpin.
In reply to Not a bug. If I saw the… by SteveBlower
Well, it very clearly is a diminuendo from f to p, no reason to not play it that way
In reply to Well, it very clearly is a… by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes but the hairpin stops in the correct place visually but the endpoint has been displaced from the end of the final note to look like it applies until the end of the penultimate note. If you don't want that final note to start p don't add a p to it! If you instead you want the next note to be p then put the p on the next note. Just write exactly what you mean rather than hoping a player will interpret it how you haven't written it.
In reply to Yes but the hairpin stops in… by SteveBlower
Agreed. This is how MuseScore works. I discovered this some time ago. I am more concerned with playback. If you want the diminuendo to continue through a long note, you need a little trickery. Or, as above, have it end before that note. Playback will work and players will figure it out. That's what they do. It's easy to forget that hairpins must beset up to end with a dynamic.
In reply to Agreed. This is how… by bobjp
This is how Tchaikovsky writes it (correctly!)
1st mvt Symphony #6 Clarinet 1
In reply to Well, it very clearly is a… by Jojo-Schmitz
Well, it very clearly is a diminuendo from f to p, no reason to not play it that way
Hmm...
I guess dragging hairpins can be considered similar to dragging volta lines (with no regard for anchor points).
I've seen bewilderment in these forums as someone writes: "Well, the volta very clearly extends over 2 measures, no reason to not play it that way."
In reply to Your hairpin extends to the… by SteveBlower
Thanks all for your replies. So yes, if I move the hairpin to the end of the 3rd tied measure, playback behaves on my Linux system as well. A couple of issues: In the past I've written some large orchestral score with MS. I have had to change/re-write some passages for the sake of proper playback, which can lead down a skewed path. In my example, as Jojo says, "the intention is obvious." So what if my example is the last 5 measures of the piece, and I want the diminuendo to continue through the end of the the last tied note (which is my intention)? The Tchikovsky example wouldn't work, because I'd have to either add another measure to the piece, or break up the last whole note into smaller values tied together. Not pretty, Thanks again Jojo and Steve
In reply to Thanks all for your replies… by George Khouri
I often have two scores. One to get the playback I want, and one for real players. Because you have to tell notation software how to make music. Real players already know.
In reply to Thanks all for your replies… by George Khouri
That Tchaikovsky example was just what I had on my music stand today. That usage where a short note is tied to to allow a final dynamic to be added as the "target" for a hairpin is very common. Having the dynamic on a final long note would imply that the dynamic on the final note is held for its whole duration and a conscientious player would play it that way. MuseScore is a conscientious player!
In reply to Thanks all for your replies… by George Khouri
The way I would do this is add the final dynamic to the hairpin itself (via the Inspector), and then set the velocity change for the hairpin manually (also via the Inspector).
The intent may have been obvious in this very specific example, but it isn't necessarily in other cases where a dynamic marking is placed at some arbitrary point in the middle of a long note. In fact the more common interpretation might be that it is intended to show an intermediate dynamic.
In reply to The way I would do this is… by Marc Sabatella
I didn't realize you could add a dynamic to the hairpin itself - never tried. This works - thanks!