Drum notes on bottom gone

• Oct 30, 2011 - 09:49

I am trying put in drum parts. I added a note in the wrong place and it's not letting me delete it. I accidentally deleted one from the drumset row at the bottom and I don't know how to bring it back up. I went to Edit, Undo, but it only undoes what I changed on the staff. I have to start a new file to get the bottom drumset row to appear full again.

How do I deselect a drum instrument so I can move the existing notes around? It keeps wanting to add a new one, but I am trying to move or delete an already existing note.

Comments

• Oct 30, 2011 - 14:47

Drumsets work in a different way to other instruments in MuseScore.

You cannot drag notes around the way you can in other instruments.

If you've accidentally deleted a note you will have to enter Note Entry Mode and type it again.

Have you seen Katie's Tutorial vid on entering Drum Parts?

If not you can find it here: http://www.musescoretips.com/2011/01/drum-parts/

If you want to edit your Drum Palette try watching my tutorial vid on the subject here: http://www.organspider.me.uk/DrumDemo1.html

If you need further help - I will be keeping an eye on the forums until about 7pm GMT.

HTH
Michael

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• Oct 30, 2011 - 16:01

No, it's got a ways to go. I am not an inexperienced user. I am also a drummer. There are some obvious things like note arrangements which don't connect like a piano piece would be written. The beams are not fully connected in a fluid manner. The bass sound needs a lot of work and hi-hat closed is barely audible compared to the crashes and snare. Snare is doable to get an idea, but it would be nice to add some reverb behind it.

Ideally, what they should do for drums is have 16 slots automatically open, 32 could be chosen with a toggle button. Then, you simply put the instruments where they belong. If you put in bass notes on beats 1 and 3, and then add 8 high hat 8th notes, you will get the bass drum move over to the second 8th beat (and probably 6th) instead of staying on the first beat. Having a bar with 16 slots would prevent this from happening.

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• Oct 30, 2011 - 17:27

Yes indeed, the drum programming has a way to go before it is user friendly.

I think part of the problem is that the default SoundFont is not particualrly good for drum sounds.

I do know some people have developed a better percussion SoundFOnt, but I think it is rooted in MArching Band percussion rather than Drumkit.

If you only had 16/32 slots open - that would make entering triplets impossible, so anything in Shuffle rhythm wouldn't be notatable.

The problem with the bass drum notes shifting is to do with Voice selection - the default Five Line Drumset needs the default voices editing to stop this, as the HiHAt and Bass drum are both currently defined to Voice 2. You can stop this by overriding the HiHat voice by clicking on one of the coloured squares.

Which means that a full drumkit can't be notated properlyusing 5 line notation as there are currently only four voices available per stave in MuseScore. As HiHat, Snare and Bassdrum account for 3 of those, there is only one left for notating toms, cymbals and accessories - this needs addressing in a future version.

Oh - and why didn't jadarite's replies come through on my subscription email notifications? Is it because he is from China?

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• Oct 30, 2011 - 19:43

Could you be more specific about what you mean when you refer to note arrangements and beam? There's nothing I can think of relating to these topics that could be considered difficult, and the the defaults generally work pretty well, but it's certainly possible you simply aren't doing something correctly, or haven't yet learned how to override the default beaming in cases where you want.

As for drum sounds, indeed, the default soundfont - which is not part of MuseScore itself but just a file that happens to be shipped along with MuseScore - sure, that particular soundfont emphasizes small fillesize over sound quality, to make the distribution as small as practical. But that's not an ease-of-use issue; just a sound quality one, and again, it has nothing to do with MuseScore per se. if you want different sounds, just.load a different SoundFont.

As for entry of drum parts, part of the problem is that the defaults are not optimized for drum set in particular. but it's a simple matter to edit the shortcuts used for entering drum notes (see Edit Drumset in the right click menu for any drum staff). I have mine set up so that "A" enters a hi hat, "B" enters a bass drum, "C" enters a ride cymbal, "D" a snare drum, "E" a tom, "F" a note above the staff I use to indicate accents when writing drum parts using slash notation, and "G" enters slash notation. Bass drum and hi-hat enter into voice 2 so the stems point down, the others drums in voice 1 so their stems point up.

So to enter what you are describing - bass drum on 1 and 3, hi-hat eighth notes, you would type

A Shift-B A A Shift-B A A Shift-B A A Shift-B A

In other words, exactly the same style of notate entry you'd use to enter a similar sequence of notes for any other instrument. It's a notation program, so it's designed to *work* like a notation program. The style of note entry you are describing is more of a sequencer style - focused on playback as opposed to on notation.

You might wonder why those shortcuts aren't the defaults, but I'd guessing it's because not everyone would care about drum set - some are more concerned with marching percussion, some with orchestral, etc.

BTW, since other may be interested in my customized drum set file, I have attached it.

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jazz.drm 4.23 KB

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• Oct 30, 2011 - 20:10

BTW, the reason it looks like the bass drum moved over the second half of the beat when you entered the hi-hat is that they are both in the same voice. The bass drum was entered as a quarter note, which lasts one beat, and you then replaced the first half of that with a hi-hat, leaving you with the second half of the original quarter. Seems a little odd to see that happn with drums, but it makes perfect sense with other instruments. Depending on how you enter the hi-hat, it will either *replace* what was already there (which is what happened here - you replaced the first half beat of the bass drum) or be *added* to it. You just have to learn how to do this, and it's not hard. I use keyboard entry exclusively, and it works exactly the same as other staves - hitting a key by itself replaces, hitting with "Shift" adds.

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• Oct 30, 2011 - 22:12

Part of the problem is that Kit drumming has a multitude of variations of how it is notated!

We still do have the problem that there aren't enough voices in MuseScore to provide a separate one for each of the normal drum parts.

Are you defaulting to a quaver duration in all your drum parts Marc? The actual duration is immaterial as regards playback, but conventionally the bass drum would be notated in crotchets and the hihat in quavers - at least in the form a drumming colleague of mine taught me (he's now sadly playing his drums with the angels). But if they're in the same voice, then surely MuseScore will not allow a crotchet in the bassdrum and a quaver in the hihat?

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• Oct 30, 2011 - 23:11

I've never found it necessary to use more than four voices in a drum set part. In fact, rarely have need for more than two. The one nice thing about notationg for drums is that durations usually don't matter. I hadn't heard of the convention of using crotchets for bass drum and quavers for hi hat, nor do I see it in any of tthe scores I have, but drum set notation is not very standardized, so it wouldn't surprise me if someone somewhere does that. No way would I compromise simplicity of notation just to implement that standard, though. I use the duration that allows the note to be struck at the right time. Generally, that means I use crotchets by default on the beat if nothing else happens on the "and" of the beat, quavers by default on the "and" of the beat, etc.

The fact that little standardization exists allows me to make other choices of convenience. I use voice two (lower half of staff, stems down) for anything done with the feet, and voice one for anything done with the hands. I use regular note heads for drums, "x" noteheads for cymbals. I won't claim that all scores I have do exactly this, but it's not out of line or atypical, either.

FWIW, here is a recent score where you can see how my drum parts look. You'll note there are actually two staves. The top part is the version I extract and print, and it uses slash notation a lot to say, "just keep doing what you're doing, or expand on it". I have it muted in playback, with a more literal part in the staff underneath.

http://musescore.com/marcsabatella/scores/27803

Check out letter G startng on page 9 in particular.

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• Oct 31, 2011 - 02:04

(I am sorry, there is no way to make 1 general reply here. It is only allowing me to reply to each, which is too tedious and I don't like to reply to or about the person, but rather the subject. Hopefully people will see when they visit this thread).

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If you only had 16/32 slots open - that would make entering triplets impossible, so anything in Shuffle rhythm wouldn't be notatable.

Please look at my comments as how they can be used in a POSITIVE manner. I did not intend on you reading this to ONLY have this option. You would START there, and then you would have the OPTION to grow. I have 32 as an EXAMPLE. Attach your TRIPLET idea with the 32 IDEA. There would be a TRIPLET BUTTON.

clicking on one of the coloured squares.

I don't know what this means. I don't want to have to learn a code to put in the notes. There shouldn't have to be any colors.

you simply aren't doing something correctly

This is completely absurd. MuseScore did not invent music notation. We shouldn't have to click things in an arbitrary manner and memorize a whole new way to notate music unique to MuseScore standards.

Here is a screenshot , http://postimage.org/image/junz37uzt/ or if you can't get it to view, try here http://www.freeimagehosting.net/33e3c and I also attached it to this thread

The rests don't need to be there.

I have mine set up so that... yadda yadda yadda

That's fine for you and you alone. The whole purpose of notation is that a flute player and a trumpet player can talk to each other without needing to know each other's "fingerings". If you tell me how you do it, then I have to adjust the assignments I would do. I don't use the keyboard as much. I am a mouse click person. I like to be able to drag what is available to where I want it. Especially with teachnology today, dragging and dropping with things like the ipad is essential. It's more intuitive than assigning a key to only one sound.

A Shift-B A A Shift-B A A Shift-B A A Shift-B A

This is the madness I am talking about. I don't want to memorize a dance move in order to play a beat.

it makes perfect sense with other instruments

Yea, who needs harmony.

You just have to learn how to do this

Not really, I am not going to use it for drum notation the way it is. Too much crashing and fiddling with the knobs just to get 3-5 sounds in the right hole. Reminds me of golfing, but instead of one ball, you have to find a way to put several in one area.

Muse Score can do piano and individual instruments pretty well, but they need to work on layering them for drums. Another idea would be to allow us to add .wav sounds so we could put in our own.

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(With the forum posts we only need one update for a thread, not a notification for every post.)

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drum.gif 12.09 KB

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• Oct 31, 2011 - 05:22

Yes, you are correct that it would in theory be possible to invent a totally and completely different method of note entry that works as you describe. But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the current method. On the contrary, as I said, it works quite well - but you *do* have to take the time to learn to use it. Just as would be required with your method. Every program has a different mechanism for creating it, and it's not reasonable to expect to be able to use a notation program without checking out the documentation. When I said you aren't doing something correctly, I don't mean you have to learn a new system of notation - that would indeed be absurd. I just meant, you need to learn to use the controls that MuseScore provides.

Is there room for improvement in MuseScore's note entry method? Of course. There are undoubtedly tweaks that could make it better still. I would simply encourage you to learn how the system actually works, which might give you ideas on how it could be made better, and then you could share those. I'm not saying your suggestions for completely replacing the note entry method aren't of value, but realistically, I think suggestions for improving the existing system would likely be more useful.

Here, BTW, is your example, entered using the method I described:

drum_notate2.png

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drum_notate2.png 4.45 KB

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• Oct 31, 2011 - 07:55

Here, BTW, is your example, entered using the method I described:

You misunderstood what was stated. 1 other person identified with the problem though.

"The problem with the bass drum notes shifting is to do with Voice selection"

I wasn't trying to duplicate a bass drum with two 8th notes. I wanted a quarter note on the downbeat of 1, but when I added the high hat 8th note, it shifted the bass drum over an 8th note value.

This flaw is unacceptable. It's like trying to wear pants with too many holes.

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• Oct 31, 2011 - 08:41

"This flaw is unacceptable". If you are not happy with MuseScore, and remember it's a free product, please don't be so rude. If it's so unacceptable, get another software package. Moreover, you seem to be interested by better sound than notation as your suggestion about a grid and your question about EZDrummer suggest. Then, you might want to try a sequencer instead of a music notation software. You will have the grid and possibility to use VST for better sounds.

Regarding notation (and it's the goal of MuseScore), all the thing you requested are doable with MuseScore, you just need to learn how to use it. Of course, you can make suggestion, but please don't be rude. MuseScore can be make better if we collaborate in a peaceful environment.

Regarding the sound, and even if it's not the primary goal of MuseScore, you can change them by using a different Soundfont . For example, 2GMGSMT.SF2 (google it), is better than the default one and good enough for proof reading your work.

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• Oct 31, 2011 - 08:52

"This flaw is unacceptable". If you are not happy with MuseScore, and remember it's a free product, please don't be so rude.

HOW DARE YOU BE SO RUDE? I am not rude for showing flaws, but it is you that is rude. If you don't like what I have to say, don't be rude, don't reply. I am here to improve the program, not your dogmatic interpretation of what the program should be. TISK TISK TISK on you.

I am happy with the notation as it relates to individual instruments. I was commenting ONLY, I mean ONLY, on the drum aspect. It needs to develop that area. Why are you ostracizing me for commenting on a weakness when I want it to be better? What benefit do you get out of this by keeping the program inferior? If I didn't care, I wouldn't be commenting to the likes of you, blah.

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• Oct 31, 2011 - 09:00

One minute into that video it shows EXACTLY what I did. The fact that any person could follow these steps and get a different result, as I have already illustrated, shows how this is not developed enough to be considered a release. It is still in the alpha stages as it relates to drum notation.

I am on windows, and I don't see drum parts listed on the left like it is shown in the video at 1:30. Also, I like to work with the bass first, not the hi-hat. Pitiful video. Try again.

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• Oct 31, 2011 - 14:31

"I wasn't trying to duplicate a bass drum with two 8th notes. I wanted a quarter note on the downbeat of 1, but when I added the high hat 8th note, it shifted the bass drum over an 8th note value."

As I already explained, that's because of the voices you chose to use when entering these notes. When you entered the hi hat, you must have done so in the same voice as the bass drum, and you entered it using the method that replaces rather than adding to the existing pitch. That would produce exactly what you describe. As explained in the video and also explained in the Handbook, you need to enter the hi hat into a different voice than the bass drum to get the effect you want.

As for the video showing *exactly* what you did, you it does help to also read the documentation. The video doesn't explicitly show this, but the handbook does make very clear that you do have to click a note or rest in the drum part first before beginning, or you get an empty drum palette the first time you open it.

And just because the video shows the drums being entered in a different order than you prefer, that doesn't change a thing. It works exactly the same in either order.

Anyhow, again, contrary to what you seem to have already concluded, this really *does* work, and quite well. Thousands upon thousands of people have successfully figured this out. I'm sure you can, too. Like I said before, certainly there is room for improvement, but it really would be much more productive if you would actually learn how it works first so you can understand what suggestions might be most helpful, rather than assuming you are trying to help someone start over from scratch. That's just very unlikely, considering that the current system works quite well already once you learn it.

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• Oct 31, 2011 - 16:26

As I already explained, that's because of the voices you chose to use when entering these notes.

Unless you are using instruments like the marimba, vibraphone, or even the timpani, you don't need voicing. You are clearly showing you aren't thinking in terms of percussion/drumming.

you do have to click a note or rest in the drum part first before beginning

I didn't. When I added a note, the rests adjusted. I never selected a rest to be put there.

that doesn't change a thing. It works exactly the same in either order.

That doesn't make your case any stronger then. If I can't do it both ways, why would I want to use the program for putting in percussion/drum parts?

Thousands upon thousands of people have successfully figured this out. I'm sure you can, too.

It's not a matter of figuring something out. Maybe the programmers should "figure" a way to make this more user friendly. I am not spending my time on the computer to do the current ritual in order to place the notes in their intended spot.

if you would actually learn how it works first

That's the thing, I don't want to learn something new. I just want to DRAG, DROP, and DONE. I can do this in other programs and import them as a MIDI file into Muse Score if I want to print something out.

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• Oct 31, 2011 - 19:15

You are mistaken about voices. i think you are coconfusing voices with voicing. voices are *essential* for drum set parts - not just in MuseScore, but for all notation programs, and indeed, all notation in general. Multiple vocies is the only way you can have independent rhythms in the same same staff - eg, hi hat eighths at the same time as bass drum quarters. It is absolutely imperative to inderstand this concept, again, not just for MuseScore, but for notation in general. This is why published music you see will have stems up for some drums, stems down for others - they are using multiple voices, with each voice represeting a different rhythm. That is how it is done when writing by hand, and that is how it done in MuseScore as well.

I know you didn't click a rest first - as I said, that's why you got an empty palette. You have to click the existing rest first. again, this is explained very clearly in the documentation which you could read five times over in the time it's taken you to type up these posts.

I have no idea what you mean about entering parts in either order not helping my case. You said you wanted to enter notes in a different order as if that somehow represented a flaw. I said it works no matter what order you enter the parts in. How is that a bad thing?

Well, at this point you've obviously made up your mind not to listen to anything anyone else says and to instead treat us all like we are idiots and you are the only one who understands anything. Whatever. Again, the program works just fine for those of us who have taken the few minutes it takes to learn. If you don't wish to join us, that's fine, but hopefully you'll understand if the developers are not particularly inclined to spend months rewriting the program to your personal specs. It works fine for everyone else, and when people who have actually taken those few minutes to understand how it works make intelligent and well-thought suggestions for improvement without being rude or condescending, those sorts of suggestions do tend to be taken seriously. So the program will continue to improve regardless of whether you choose to help or not.

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• Oct 31, 2011 - 22:30

You are mistaken about voices.

No, I am not. You are assuming there is something I don't know in order to justify defending a flaw. Why? Why not accept the fact there needs to be improvements?

Other programs are easier when programming in drums. I even used Cakewalk back in the 90's and other programs at Berklee College of Music. I know what I am talking about. MuseScore is a 2011 creation and it doesn't have the basic needed elements for programming drum parts .

I am not going to continue this with you. You are the stubborn one who is unwilling to take my suggestions. So, I am rude? Tough. Learn to accept suggestions.

To the programmers, I am willing to work with you to make a better program. However, I am not going to learn a new system in order to plot notes on a staff. That is completely ridiculous.

It would be easier to use another program that is more user friendly, and then import the midi file.

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• Nov 1, 2011 - 00:38

You are mistaken about voices. Using voices in MS is the only way to notate multiple independant musical lines on one staff. It's the way MS is designed, and its not about to change just because you refuse to learn and work with it. Deal with it.

A deliberately belligerent, confrontational and rude attitude will get you nowhere.

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• Nov 1, 2011 - 01:25

Well, you are dictating to me how to use MS when I directly told you I am not going to use it as is for composing purposes. That doesn't make me belligerent. It's not a crime not to use the program for composing music. I stated a limitation. That was the only purpose. I wasn't seeking your support.

Hopefully, a programmer will make appropriate changes. I didn't come here to fight with the MS groupies.

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• Nov 1, 2011 - 04:41

MS dictates how to work with it, not us.

And then you stated:

It works as is so changes won't likely be forthcoming.

Which is it? Are you speaking for them or are they making the decisions?

Everyone here has tried to help you

I never sought help on this. This is where your problem is. I commented on something I was trying to do. I was never seeking support on how to do things differently. I am quite happy importing midi files when needed. Get that through your tyrant Hitler head.

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