Multiple tuplets
I'm transcribing Mahler's 6th symphony the 4th movement and have run into something I have not idea how to reproduce without some major cosmetic surgery, such as pasting a copy of this picture on it, which I won't do. Here it is
BTW, this is just the 4th beat of the 4 beat measure.
| Attachment | Size |
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| tuplets.png | 11.73 KB |
Comments
I have an idea, but before I do it I want some opinions.
What is Mahler's expectation when this is played. Does he expect 3&4 to play the first 5 notes in unison with 1&2 then stop, or does he expect 3&4 to play the 5th-let while 1&2 play the 7th-let? I lean toward the 2nd option since all of these instruments play a whole note on the next beat (not shown). This is the Oboe and Bb Clarinet parts while the only other instrument with a tuplet is the lone D Clarinet which has the 7th-let written.
If this is the second option I can always put the 5th-let into voice 2 and adjust the location of the notes in the 5th-let, even though it won't be fun.
Thoughts?
In reply to I have an idea, but before I by mike320
Please, next measure :) (for correct analysis )
example 1: if 1,2 is E (or D, or C#) and 3,4 is C (or B, or A) = 7 over 5
example 2: if 1,2 is E and 3,4 is rest = same tuplet for all voices.
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example x: some other notes/rests .... = some other opinions.
In reply to Please, next measure :) (for by Ziya Mete Demircan
they play a 3 tone whole note A major Chord with the C# doubled.
In reply to they play a 3 tone whole note by mike320
my opinion : 7 over 5 (both are tuplets. ) Just sharing noteheads.
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1. for correct playing:
2. for visual representation (both are same tuplet (rests invisible in second voice)
3. Split Staff. :)
Who knows, honestly?
I would say that the first 5 notes are played in unison and then instruments 3&4 have a rest. Elsewhere in his works (4th Symphony, IV, 11-12 for instance) he has four instruments playing in unison for ff then f and then two only for p or dim.
He doesn't seem to go in much for sections where the same instruments are playing different complex rhythms...except then he does just that in his 6th symphony where flutes are playing 5-tuplets and other instruments 7-tuplets.
In reply to Who knows, honestly? I would by underquark
Except he has the harp also playing a 5 octave glissando at the same time and he didn't decrease the volume as he went as he usually does when he drops off instruments.
I have no idea the experience the people on this site have, perhaps there is a Mahler expert. I'm barely familiar with him, which is part of the reason I'm doing this.
It's a pity that either the original or the engraver didn't either space the notes out explicitly, add in a rest (if that was what was intended) or enter a comment. For the most part the piece is very much in unison but there are, as pointed out, bits where a 5-tuplet overlaps a 7-tuplet though these are all quite clear.
The absence of sudden dynamic may, indeed, lean towards overlapping 5 and 7. Maybe the engraver just couldn't face entering all the notes with the complex spacing implications and felt that the performer/conductor would understand. Maybe 5 overlapping 7 makes for a more glissando-like sound from the woodwind to match the harp.
If just for the sake of visual reproducability; use a 7tuplet in both voice 1 & 2, put a 5tuplet in voice 4 for the bracket?
In reply to If just for the sake of by jeetee
I am concerned about visual reproduction, but I also want it to sound right. So I now need to decide if, having muted voice 2, I need to add notes into voice 4 so it will play the 5th-let correctly, even though the hidden stuff will look really ugly. Or do I add voice 3 (hidden) with a 5th-let with the 5 notes to be played? Or do I just leave it as is since it will sound like a unison anyway - that is 3rd & 4th drop out after 5 notes?
In reply to I am concerned about visual by mike320
If you'll need playback to be non-aligned, then you'll need all 4 voices on this one. The bracket of the 5tuplet was anchored to the correct position by *deleting* the final 16th from it, so no possibility of using the same tuplet for playback purposes.
In the attached, voice 1 is visible and played, voice 2 is visible only (notes 7tuplet, first 5 notes used, 2 rests made invisible), voice 3 is the bracket visible only (5tuplet, delete last 16th from it to match up positions), voice 4 is playback only (audible 5tuplet).
Using the selection filter (F6) is extremely useful in this attempt…
Attached file has first bars playing back as 7-tuplets simultaneous with 5-tpulets within the same beat (i.e. not in unison). The next two bars have playback of 7-tuplets only (in unison, with some voices not playing the last two notes in the tuplet.) The final two measures show my attempts at engraving + playback. The one that looks closest to the original required two Voices, Local re-layout and adjustment of horizontal offsets in Inspector.
in this case, target is the "A Major" chord.
The notes from the front are just what you need when you go to this chord.
7'th tuplet and 5'th tuplet are written according to the number of notes required when accessing the target note(s).
Thanks to everyone for their input. I decided that the 2 tuplets are to be played simultaneously (not unison) and have incorporated them into the score. I used jeetee's plan, silenced voice 2 and added another invisible voice for the 5th-let. It will probably be posted to my account in a couple of weeks.