Fingerings and articulations moving in small staves
I am starting a new thread on this since my old one is now many weeks old. I am using v. 1.2. on a Mac.
Here is the problem: I have a system with regular size staves for the piano and above it a small size staff for the violin (this is common practice as most people will know).
When I save a file, then re-open it fingerings and some of the articulation signs in the small staff (but not in the regular size staves) have moved away from the notes to which they belong. Every time I save they move a little farer away. I have to correct them immediately prior to printing if I want to have the music look properly.
When I first posted on this, Marc advised me to try if the problem is still there with a nightly build for v. 2.
I finally did that and I am afraid I have to report that this problem is still around for today's (07/30/12) build number f811d16.
For an example see the attached file. I saved it with the fingerings and the accent in correct placement. Open it, save it, close it and re-open it and you can see the effect. Then repeat as many times as you like.
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| example.mscz | 2.04 KB |
Comments
This issue was considered fixed a year ago: #10585: [ver 1.0] Accidental offset in small staves corrupted by saving and reloading (I noticed it with displaced accidentals, but it is the same mechanism).
I just tried with a score created with V2 (opposed to imported from V1) and the issue is the same.
It is probably the case to re-open the old issue or, even better, to create a new one for V2.
M.
In reply to Regression! by Miwarre
Just to be precise: accidentals do not have this problem this time around. I observed it with fingerings and articulation markings (i.e. some of them).
This is a BIG problem in v. 1.2. For example, fermatas, turns, and trill signs must be moved from their initial positions if the notes they are attached to are at the top of or above the staff. They then continue to move every time the file is saved and re-opened. Sometimes they even wind up in another system, especially (I think) if the system breaks are changed. If there are at all many, it is hard and time consuming to find and fix them all before printing. I believe that articulations that have never been moved stay put.
In reply to articulations moving in small staves by jwpratt
This is exactly what I observe now that I have lived with the problem somewhat longer: the signs, trills mostly in my case, drift upwards if they have been placed above their default position right above the stave. Otherwise they stay put. It also seems to me that the farer from default they are initially the faster they move. Is there a way to have the software place those signs a certain distance above the note heads yet never inside the stave? I am not a programming sort of person so I really wouldn't know.
One more observation: some signs do not move. staccato dots for example and slurs as well as hair pins stay put nicely, regardless where you move them to. But the drop shaped signs that some composers use for staccato ("Keile" in German, don't know the English word) move like the trills do. Is it that the signs that can be entered from the keyboard are staying put while the ones that must be entered from the palette do move?
My somewhat satisfactory work around is as follows: I create the score with all staves standard size. Nothing moves around that way. When the score is proof read and considered correct I create the parts. Then and only then I set the staves I need small to "small" (i.e. the staves of instruments other than piano). This will cause changes in the system- and page-breaks. So now I have to go over the entire score and fix formatting issues (slurs across a break for example or slurs that used to be across a break but are now "together"; also page turns if possible). Every time I open the score I move the errand markings back to where they belong when I spot them as I work along. Right before printing (i.e. saving to pdf) I go over the entire score with great care before hitting that print command.
I also create one file per movement, correct the page numbers for the second and later movements and combine the pdfs into one file at the very end. That way the correction job does not take too many sessions (as each session starts with freshly displaced trills that need to be corrected again).
In reply to This is exactly what I observed by azumbrunn
Staccato dots don't stay put for me if I move them. When I put a dot on the first violin note in your example, it is too high. If I move it down, it moves further down on every save. I don't think it matters how I enter it (drag or double cllick. How do you enter it without using the palette anyway?) I just put in a slur between the second B and the following E and it was too far to the right. I moved it left and it moved right after I saved.
The drop shaped signs are called "wedges" around here. Looking it up, I find it seems closer to "Keil" than "Keile", but my German is rudimentary, if that.
Your work around is the only possibility I can see, but it would not save me in what I am now doing. It's an arrangement whose first movement alone is 382 4/4 bars with piano and two other instruments, about 20 pages, 4 systems per page, space 1.6mm, densest note spacing allowed. I want to try it out with people, try out page breaks, etc. If the parts in the score were full size, I would have to go to a smaller note size to fit 4 systems on a page, breaks would change when I went to the right sizes, etc. Even if I only printed once, and had much greater patience and stamina than I do, I would never find everything. For the moment I am just correcting the separate parts and the piano, and letting the parts do what they will in the score, but I don't know what I'll do in the end. Have you pasted parts into a score? If so, how did it work out? If you discover anything, I will be most interested.
In reply to fingerings and articulations moving in small staves by jwpratt
I had not noticed staccato points moving because I never moved one out of its default positions; I ought to have figured that and would not have given incorrect information. However I have never seen a need to move a staccato dot.
As to your problem: I don't have any better ideas either. I am working with someone else's music (who has long been dead). So when I am convinced that my score is reasonably error free I go through the work described and save pdf files which of course never change. Printing can then be done whenever necessary.
Staccato points can be entered from the keyboard: select the note(s), hit shift and the dot key. Unfotunately the other articulation signs need to be entered from the palette as far as I know; the keyboard method is my preferred way as it works on a group of notes or also when notes are entered from the keyboard.
"Wedges" (thanks for the translation!) are "Keile", a "wedge" is a "Keil", that is all that is to that difference by the way.